# Is accusing someone of "making stuff" up no longer considered an accusation of lying? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [July 21, 2015, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748 "2015-07-21T02:25:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748/21 "2015-07-22T12:54:43Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > After all when someone decides to ask me if I believe I can make stuff up after a post it’s obvious to everyone that he thinks I just “made up” the post. It’s like the difference between saying “That is a lie”, and asking “Why did you lie?”. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748/22 "2015-07-22T13:16:00Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > It’s like the difference between saying “That is a lie”, and asking “Why did you lie?”. True, and if I’d posted “Why did you lie” I’d expect to get modded. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748/23 "2015-07-22T18:29:14Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Best practice? Don’t accuse others of intentional fabrication. This should not be difficult, I’d imagine. Best practice? Check your facts before posting.😃 OP, this was a kinda bad thing to hang your hat on, since you _were_ incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748/24 "2015-07-22T19:01:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Best practice? Check your facts before posting.😃 OP, this was a kinda bad thing to hang your hat on, since you _were_ incorrect. Respectfully, making an inaccurate statement is not a violation of the rules. Accusing someone of lying is. Haberdash also made inaccurate statements about Prohibition but that wouldn’t mean that I wouldn’t be modded if I accused him of being a liar. In fact, Tom seems to be implying that if I hadn’t posted afterwards “please don’t accuse me of lying” he’d have modded Haberdash. ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748/25 "2015-07-22T19:29:28Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Context does make a difference. > > Had the statement posted been “_You made that up._” in reference to a specific statement of yours, Mod action would have been taken, regardless. The question “_Why do you think you can just make stuff up?_” is not as clear a direct accusation of lying. Can you weigh in on “you’re a fuckface” versus “why do you think you can be such a fuckface”? The lines are apparently a little blurrier than I thought. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748/26 "2015-07-22T19:29:55Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Respectfully, making an inaccurate statement is not a violation of the rules. Accusing someone of lying is. So, are you saying that Lying is Ok, but calling someone out for being a liar is wrong? 😕:dubious: How are we supposed to phrase it when your factoid is false? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748/27 "2015-07-22T19:39:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, are you saying that Lying is Ok, but calling someone out for being a liar is wrong? 😕:dubious: > > How are we supposed to phrase it when your factoid is false? What’s wrong with “your factoid is false”? That’s not a accusation of lying, but of being wrong. Those are not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748/28 "2015-07-22T19:41:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What’s wrong with “your factoid is false”? > > That’s not a accusation of lying, but of being wrong. Those are not the same thing. I dunno. Would that be Ok with Master Chance? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748/29 "2015-07-22T20:01:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I dunno. Would that be Ok with Master Chance? Why wouldn’t it be. All poodles are dogs but not all dogs are poodles. All lies are false statements not all false statements are lies. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748/30 "2015-07-22T20:09:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I dunno. Would that be Ok with Master Chance? It better be! How could a debate function at all if we can’t say, “No, wait, that’s not true.” “Nome is the capital of Alaska.” “Um…gosh, that’s an interesting idea.” ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748/31 "2015-07-22T22:30:44Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Respectfully, I’m not sure how you can see the phrase “why do you think you can just make stuff up” as anything other than an accusation of lying. > > After all when someone decides to ask me if I believe I can make stuff up after a post it’s obvious to everyone that he thinks I just “made up” the post. > > What other explanation is there? It just so happens this came up in an earlier ATMB thread. Here is the poster’s explanation: > [@You don't know what you're talking about = direct insult?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-dont-know-what-youre-talking-about-direct-insult/724194/98): > > No, he wasn’t “mistaken”, nor was he lying, nor did I accuse him of such. > > It may be instructive to look at the actual exchange from the link below. > > The poster made the statement “And Kantian ethics permits retroactive abortion up to age 13”. > > I said “I want to see a credible cite for that.” > > Poster acknowledges that he doesn’t have a cite, but alleges that it follows from Kantian ethics. I argue that it doesn’t. Clearly this is the poster’s own interpretation, hence my observation that he “just made it up”. [Which he freely acknowledges](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18299086&postcount=133) in so many words: “I made it up but I think it follows from what Kant said.” > > The upshot here is that we’ve established that his view is his own interpretation and not something that can be cited from authority. Yes, “you made it up” is a blunt and direct way of saying that, but in this context that **is** what it says, and nothing more. In a completely different context such a phrase _ **could** _ be used to imply that someone is lying, sure. But not here. That’s why, as always, context is important. > > This specific incident was no big deal and I only bring it up now as an example supporting my earlier concerns about blanket prohibitions on specific phrases because of what they _ **might** _ mean. I’m trying to promote reasonable use of language here, not trying to a jerk advocating the use of gratuitous insults. > > Like “you’re right”, “you’re wrong”, “you have a point”, “you misunderstand me”? That doesn’t seem like a very practical rule, or one conducive to natural conversation. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748/32 "2015-07-22T22:41:09Z")
Just to add: I know it’s not the same circumstance as your exchange, but based on my familiarity with **Haberdash** ’s posts, he often suggests that anyone who disagrees with him is delusional or in denial (e.g., “Let’s not pretend…”). IMO, not quite the same thing as an accusation of lying. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748/33 "2015-07-23T17:05:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, are you saying that Lying is Ok, but calling someone out for being a liar is wrong? 😕:dubious: > > How are we supposed to phrase it when your factoid is false? ER…I’m not sure what I said that would cause you to think I said “lying is ok”. I don’t mean to sound condescending but you do realize there’s a difference between “making a mistake” and “lying”? Or is your position that any false statement, whether it’s a mistake or a deliberate fabrication should be treated the same? We’ve had lots of posters refer to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as the “leader” of Iran when he was President even though he was only about the third or fourth most important official in Iran. I never once accused people of lying when they said that and would have expected to be modded if I’d said “do you think you can just make stuff up” in response to the post. That’s why I’m stunned by the idea that some saying “do you think you can just make stuff up” is not considered the same as saying “you made that up” and that claiming “do you think you can just make stuff up” is considered a “borderline” case. Again, hopefully we’ll hear some clarification as to why “do you think you can just make stuff up” is considered significantly different than “you just made that up” when “in context”(to use Tom’s phrase) they both clearly mean the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748/34 "2015-07-23T20:49:53Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Again, hopefully we’ll hear some clarification as to why “do you think you can just make stuff up” is considered significantly different than “you just made that up” when “in context”(to use Tom’s phrase) they both clearly mean the same thing. One is a question and the other a direct statement. I agree that neither is appropriate in GD. However, a generalized question about an approach to a topic differs from a direct statement regarding a specific assertion. The next time you feel you have been accused of lying, simply report it instead of responding to it, yourself. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748/35 "2015-07-23T21:22:56Z")
Perhaps these issues have come up before > **[No Questioning the Truth - or Something...](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=695124)** > > Given this from the sticky in GD - What does this Mod Note mean? So we can dispute the accuracy of another poster’s statements, and say directly “That’s not true”, but we cannot deny that the comments are true. The distinction escapes me. Is... > **["Your Claim is Untrue" is Not Allowed?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=730880)** > > I think I started a thread about this earlier. Reader’s Digest version - I have been mod noted for this post. The post in question reads as follows - The objection is that this could be read as an accusation of lying. It is not. The first... ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748/36 "2015-07-23T22:02:59Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > One is a question and the other a direct statement. I agree that neither is appropriate in GD. “Are you still beating your wife” is a question and “you used to beat your wife” is an assertion but most people would see them as meaning the same thing and would be taken as equally offensive. > [@](#): > > However, a generalized question about an approach to a topic differs from a direct statement regarding a specific assertion. I think all reasonable people would agree that it was very much not a generalized question but a rather specific question and furthermore that it was mean to be taken as an assertion. Meaning no disrespect, but I don’t think anyone thinks for one second that Haberdash didn’t intend it to be taken as anything but an assertion and frankly suggesting he intended it to be taken as a question not an assertion is insulting his intelligence. > [@](#): > > The next time you feel you have been accused of lying, simply report it instead of responding to it, yourself. How did I respond improperly? He accused me of lying, I explained it was not a lie, but a mistake and explained the reason for the mistake. Are you saying that if someone accuses me of lying that it’s improper for me to say “I didn’t lie, I made a mistake because of X Y Z”? Also, once again, if this really was a “borderline” case where I wasn’t accused of anything but instead asked “a generalized question” and he did nothing worthy of a warning much less a mod note, than what would the point of reporting it be since it wasn’t considered a violation. FTR, I did report it, but I don’t see how saying “I didn’t lie, I made a mistake because of X Y Z” somehow put you in a bind where you felt you couldn’t take mod action. One last thing, Jonathan felt I was being quite angry and self-righteous. I disagree, but I’d have to be completely lacking in self-awareness to not recognize how it wold be reasonable for him to assume so. If you felt that way, I’ll also understand. Once again, I wasn’t angry at Haberdash((at least not beyond the first three seconds after I read Haberdash’s post) and I wasn’t angry at you or any other mods. I was honestly puzzled because I was under the impression, and clearly am not the only one who believed this, that accusing someone of lying, “making stuff up”, “making false assertions” etc. was something that was strictly forbidden under any circumstances. Learning in this that making such a claim outside of the Pit is frowned upon and strongly discouraged but, in certain “contexts” considered barely acceptable is a bit eye-opening but I’m glad to have my understanding corrected. And no, I’m not going to try and use that to try and accuse people of lying while claiming “I’m not making an assertion, I’m asking a question” and don’t think for two seconds that doing so would be taken well. The point being, I won’t insult your intelligence and claim I agreed with your decision, but I do respect it, don’t take it personally, and generally think if you’re going to make a mistake it’s better to make a mistake and not issue a warning when you should rather than issuing a warning when you shouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748/37 "2015-07-23T22:51:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The next time you feel you have been accused of lying, simply report it instead of responding to it, yourself. I’m very confused about this one. If someone accuses you of lying, responding to that accusation renders their rule violation un-actionable by mods? Is the person accused of lying _ever_ allowed to respond? For years, I’ve seen mods go through bicker-fests and mod the early rule-breaking posts that started it off. Why would this be any different? A post is either in violation of the rules or it’s not, regardless of what comes after it. Has that changed? ---
**Author:** ![Anonymous\_6de399d1a341c23c3c84f98e7f743e0e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@Anonymous\_6de399d1a341c23c3c84f98e7f743e0e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anonymous_6de399d1a341c23c3c84f98e7f743e0e)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748/38 "2015-07-23T23:23:33Z")
What’s the threat of allowing people to manage their own conversations? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748/39 "2015-07-23T23:32:12Z")
> [@spinky](#): > > I’m very confused about this one. If someone accuses you of lying, responding to that accusation renders their rule violation un-actionable by mods? Is the person accused of lying _ever_ allowed to respond? For years, I’ve seen mods go through bicker-fests and mod the early rule-breaking posts that started it off. Why would this be any different? A post is either in violation of the rules or it’s not, regardless of what comes after it. Has that changed? No. Making a public issue about a borderline call, (and I realize that we are in disagreement as to whether it is borderline), puts the Mod in the position of appearing to take sides. If the matter is borderline, I am less likely to jump in to give the appearance of taking sides. ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748/40 "2015-07-24T00:09:24Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No. Making a public issue about a borderline call, (and I realize that we are in disagreement as to whether it is borderline), puts the Mod in the position of appearing to take sides. If the matter is borderline, I am less likely to jump in to give the appearance of taking sides. The mod is _supposed_ to “take sides” on the issue of whether something is a rules violation. That’s the entire point of a moderator. If you think warning someone for a rules violation means you’re taking the other person’s side in the overall argument, how do you ever moderate anything? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-accusing-someone-of-making-stuff-up-no-longer-considered-an-accusation-of-lying/725748.md?page=3)