# Is Affirmative Action focused on the wrong things?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 5, 2017, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792 "2017-04-05T02:21:14Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 10
### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/181 "2017-04-07T20:05:34Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> But the generally background racism and discrimination that is encountered by African immigrants doesn’t seem like the same thing as what descendants experience.
Says you, with no evidence. The experiences of the African immigrants in my family matches up reasonably closely with those of other black Americans I’ve spoken to.
---
### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/182 "2017-04-07T20:07:56Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> Underline mine.
>
> This is the part that I most disagree with, and it is the part that indicates a racial bias.
>
> It is not applied to all blacks, only the ones who check the box will even get credit.
>
> It is also a faulty and biased assumption to assume that a person would not get in without the point boost from AA, if they did ask for it.
OK let me try this again for the 5th time: Do you think that AA is considered in the admissions process for African immigrants?
And how in the fuck is the following statement an indication of racial bias? " Or am I just a racist for acknowledging that AA exists and is applied to all blacks in America including African immigrants?"
What? because I neglected to mention that some black applicants don’t check the box? Geez for fucks sake.
And considering the fact that black students at top colleges have SAT scores 200 points below their white counterparts, it really doesn’t seem like a stretch to assume that some of them would not have gotten in without AA.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/183 "2017-04-07T20:09:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> I’m certainly open to including Asians in AA if the facts show that Asian people don’t have a decent chance to succeed in our society.
>
> Any “standard” I advocated never changed. My support for AA has always been about rectifying, as much as possible, unequal treatment for groups that don’t get a fair shake in our society at a decent life. If Asians don’t have a decent chance at a decent life, then I’m open to including them as well.
Well then your articulation of what you meant has changed because it used to be just the effects of racism. Now its the effects of racism if you aren’t able to meet some threshold level of success regardless of whether that is the result of the racism or not.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/184 "2017-04-07T20:14:24Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> OK let me try this again for the 5th time: Do you think that AA is considered in the admissions process for African immigrants?
>
> And how in the fuck is the following statement an indication of racial bias? " Or am I just a racist for acknowledging that AA exists and is applied to all blacks in America including African immigrants?"
>
> What? because I neglected to mention that some black applicants don’t check the box? Geez for fucks sake.
>
> And considering the fact that black students at top colleges have SAT scores 200 points below their white counterparts, it really doesn’t seem like a stretch to assume that some of them would not have gotten in without AA.
I don’t think you’re a racist, but the statement “AA exists and is applied to all blacks in America…” directly conflicts with “…some of them would not have gotten in without AA”.
Hint: it’s the difference between _all_ and _some_.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/185 "2017-04-07T20:15:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> Well then your articulation of what you meant has changed because it used to be just the effects of racism. Now its the effects of racism if you aren’t able to meet some threshold level of success regardless of whether that is the result of the racism or not.
These particular effects, yes – the effects that have resulted in a situation of unequal opportunity for a decent chance at success.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/186 "2017-04-07T20:24:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> I’m focused on equality of opportunity, not results. I think the evidence shows that several groups really don’t have equal opportunity in achieving a decent life in the US.
The poverty rate for two parent households in the black community is 2%. The poverty rate for single moms who had their children out of wedlock is significantly higher. Is it possible that these social factors play a bigger role in poverty than racism?
And how do you know that blacks don’t have even better opportunity than Asians just because Asians achieve better results? Perhaps the low rate of unwed pregnancy, low rates of truancy and criminality, low rate of gang membership, etc. allows them to take advantage of what few opportunities they can eke out of this horribly racist society of ours.
> [@](#):
>
> I think your idea about using bloodlines is incredibly dumb. America doesn’t treat people differently based on their DNA or ancestry – it’s based on their race (and other groupings), which are sociological, not biological, characteristics. I’m probably the descendant of some slaves (according to my DNA ancestry tests, anyway), but I’ve been treated as white all my life, with all the accompanying benefits. Plenty of dark-skinned people in America with no slave ancestry have been treated as black all their lives, with all the accompanying shitty treatment and lesser opportunity.
>
> I’m unconvinced that the fact that some African immigrants benefit from AA harms non-immigrant black Americans.
Even when half the black population at Ivy leagues are African immigrants?
Is it possible that these schools are trying to achieve X% black population and they pick the best applicants they can find and half of those slots are going to 10% of the black population consisting of African immigrants?
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/187 "2017-04-07T20:26:51Z")
**Damuri Ajashi** – I think I’ve figured out why your posting style is so damn annoying sometimes. You respond to each post without looking to see if other posts have answered your questions and addressed your points.
Please, please… before you post a response, go ahead and read all the posts after that one, since you’ll find that many of the subsequent posts answered your questions and addressed your points.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/188 "2017-04-07T20:28:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Where did I call you racist?
>
> Why did you bring up this girl if she has no relevance to this discussion? The only point to bring her up in relation to this discussion would be if you think she’s an example of someone getting unearned benefit. If there’s another reason, then what is it?
So when you say I should “own” my assumption that she didn’t earn her achievements, what exactly are you trying to say?
And BTW, where do I say she didn’t earn her achievements?
I brought up the girl because she is the subject of the article. The article where they mention all the students who got into all 8 Ivies, most of whom are African immigrants.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/189 "2017-04-07T20:30:43Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> So when you say I should “own” my assumption that she didn’t earn her achievements, what exactly are you trying to say?
That you made a dumb and obnoxious assumption, and you shouldn’t do that.
> [@](#):
>
> And BTW, where do I say she didn’t earn her achievements?
This sentence implied it: “She seems well qualified to have been accepted to at least one but all 8 is the sort of achievement that is largely restricted to a small subset of the population.”
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/190 "2017-04-07T20:40:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> **Damuri Ajashi** , if you’re going to take every criticism and challenge as an accusation of racism, then there’s not much point to any discussion with you. No one has called you racist in this thread.
I think I’ve been taking criticism very well until people start saying that
I’m someone who makes subtly racist assumptions:
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20120709&postcount=131](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20120709&postcount=131)
with unconscious racial biases:
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20120726&postcount=132](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20120726&postcount=132)
who just assumes things about black people:
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20121058&postcount=138](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20121058&postcount=138)
Who assumes any achievement by black people is because of AA:
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20121058&postcount=139](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20121058&postcount=139)
Who shows racial bias:
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20121760&postcount=167](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20121760&postcount=167)
But you’re right no one came out and said “Damuri you’re a racist because you don’t think AA is helping African immigrants get into schools they might not otherwise get into” Isn’t that the whole point of having AA in the first place? To provide a goddam advantage?
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/191 "2017-04-07T20:46:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> You’re still talking about the past, while I’m talking about the present. And there may well be real significant and major discrimination against Asian people in America in the present. No one in this thread has said that Asians should definitely not be included in AA.
I’m not really arguing for AA for Asians. I’m using it as a rhetorical device.
> [@](#):
>
> More assertions (especially about police) without cites.
]]Which ones do you doubt?
> [@](#):
>
> Yes, I think most inequality of opportunity and of outcome in the US is due to discrimination and unequal treatment. I think any element of “toxic culture” (which you just threw out there without an explanation) or breakdown of the family is a symptom, rather than a cause, of unequal treatment and discrimination for black people in America.
So where is the breakdown of the African immigrant family? Where is the breakdown of the caribean immigrant family?
> [@](#):
>
> The data I’ve seen, and more importantly what black people have personally told me, overwhelmingly tells me that there are dozens/hundreds/thousands/millions of obstacles, both small and large, that most African Americans face, every single day/month/year, that other groups don’t face.
So anecdotes?
How many Asians have you talked to about race? How many Hispanics? How many Jews?
---
### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/192 "2017-04-07T20:47:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> I think I’ve been taking criticism very well until people start saying that
>
> I’m someone who makes subtly racist assumptions:
>
> [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20120709&postcount=131](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20120709&postcount=131)
>
> with unconscious racial biases:
>
> [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20120726&postcount=132](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20120726&postcount=132)
>
> who just assumes things about black people:
>
> [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20121058&postcount=138](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20121058&postcount=138)
>
> Who assumes any achievement by black people is because of AA:
>
> [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20121058&postcount=139](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20121058&postcount=139)
>
> Who shows racial bias:
>
> [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20121760&postcount=167](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20121760&postcount=167)
>
> But you’re right no one came out and said “Damuri you’re a racist because you don’t think AA is helping African immigrants get into schools they might not otherwise get into” Isn’t that the whole point of having AA in the first place? To provide a goddam advantage?
Pointing out possible racial bias is very, very different than calling someone a racist. I probably have some racial bias (and I certainly have in the past), even though I try not to.
Try not to be so sensitive. That you (or anyone) may have some racial bias is a revelation of nothing more than that you’re human living in modern society. It’s nigh-impossible to grow up in this world without having some biases.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/193 "2017-04-07T20:47:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> I don’t think you’re a racist, but the statement “AA exists and is applied to all blacks in America…” directly conflicts with “…some of them would not have gotten in without AA”.
>
> Hint: it’s the difference between _all_ and _some_.
AA is applied to all of them. Some of them need it to get in and some of them don’t.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/194 "2017-04-07T20:49:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> **Damuri Ajashi** – I think I’ve figured out why your posting style is so damn annoying sometimes. You respond to each post without looking to see if other posts have answered your questions and addressed your points.
>
> Please, please… before you post a response, go ahead and read all the posts after that one, since you’ll find that many of the subsequent posts answered your questions and addressed your points.
The reason I do this is because when I skip a post, people complain. I will try it your way.
So do you think that African immigrants benefit form AA?
---
### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/195 "2017-04-07T20:51:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> That you made a dumb and obnoxious assumption, and you shouldn’t do that.
So when you say I made a dumb and obnoxious assumption, what assumption is that and please cite where I make that assumption (or are you just assuming I made that assumption?) and why is it dumb and obnoxious? Is it racist perhaps?
> [@](#):
>
> This sentence implied it: “She seems well qualified to have been accepted to at least one but all 8 is the sort of achievement that is largely restricted to a small subset of the population.”
That subset is African immigrants.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/196 "2017-04-07T20:52:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> Which ones do you doubt?
This one most prominently:
“African immigrants don’t encounter the same police hostility that the descendants do.”
> [@](#):
>
> So where is the breakdown of the African immigrant family? Where is the breakdown of the caribean immigrant family?
In my understanding of the data, African/Caribbean immigrant families start to statistically resemble African Americans a generation or two after their arrival.
> [@](#):
>
> So anecdotes?
>
> How many Asians have you talked to about race? How many Hispanics? How many Jews?
Many from each group, including members of my family in every one of these groups except Hispanics. Along with lots of data.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/197 "2017-04-07T20:52:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Pointing out possible racial bias is very, very different than calling someone a racist. I probably have some racial bias (and I certainly have in the past), even though I try not to.
>
> Try not to be so sensitive. That you (or anyone) may have some racial bias is a revelation of nothing more than that you’re human living in modern society. It’s nigh-impossible to grow up in this world without having some biases.
Its not calling out racial bias. Its people trying to call me a racist to shut me up.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/198 "2017-04-07T20:53:17Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> So do you think that African immigrants benefit form AA?
I’m sure some do. I’m totally fine with this.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/199 "2017-04-07T20:55:17Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> Its not calling out racial bias. Its people trying to call me a racist to shut me up.
Or maybe they just disagree with you and you’re being oversensitive about it.
---
### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/200 "2017-04-07T20:58:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> So when you say I made a dumb and obnoxious assumption, what assumption is that and please cite where I make that assumption (or are you just assuming I made that assumption?) and why is it dumb and obnoxious? Is it racist perhaps?
>
> That subset is African immigrants.
I just cited it – this sentence: “She seems well qualified to have been accepted to at least one but all 8 is the sort of achievement that is largely restricted to a small subset of the population.”
I’ll break down why – you say she’s qualified enough for “at least one”… but then you add a “but” about “all 8”. That implies that you think she’s good enough for one, but not all 8. Otherwise, the first part wouldn’t have been followed by “but” and you would have said “qualified to have been accepted at all 8” instead of “at least one”.
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