# Is Affirmative Action focused on the wrong things?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 5, 2017, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792 "2017-04-05T02:21:14Z")
**Posts on this page:** 4
**Page:** 11
### Author:  [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2017, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/201 "2017-04-10T18:46:58Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> Its not calling out racial bias. Its people trying to call me a racist to shut me up.
If the goal was to just call you a racist, you would’ve been pitted by now.
You’ve been given feedback on how you are being perceived. You have two options: 1) ignore the feedback because it hurts your feelingsor 2) consider the feedback and grow from it. I’m optimistic you can do the latter.
Since you object to people interpreting your OP as a racist dig, let me ask: what did you seek to communicate by holding up White Thorpe as an example of the issue you’re talking about?
She got into 8 Ivy Leagues, okay. She’s also of Nigerian descent. Okay. And? All I take from these two facts is that she is probably an exceptionally good student. I mean, that’s what I conclude about the other two students mentioned in this thread; am I to treat her differently? Without any facts about her grades, her SAT scores, or her extra currics, there would be no reason for me to do that. You can’t even tell us whether her parents were former Ivy Leaguers or political big wigs or faculty/adminstrators at any of those schools.
If this student were to google her name and find this thread, how do you think she might see your OP? Do you think it would be unreasonable for her to take offense at what you’ve implied about her? Perhaps ask yourself how many times in her life she’s already had to deal with comments about her “getting ahead” because of her race, despite being objectively better than the competition.
It isn’t difficult for me to put myself in her shoes, because _I’ve already been in her shoes_. I’ve been the black girl who had to be 3 times as good as the white boys just to be seen as equal to them. I’ve been the black girl who graduated with honors from one of the toughest engineering schools in the U.S., and yet was assumed to be less deserving of a spot than the white boys who ended up flunking out or barely skating by. I’ve been her, so I know how I’d interpret being singled out as one of those undeserving Affirmative Action recipients.
Again, I implore you to take a look at the folks in charge right now. Do you _really_ believe that it’s the White Thorpes of the world that we should be concerned about? Let’s assume she isn’t truly an exceptional student and her race did give her a leg up over someone else. Is this really a more pressing problem than the wealthy (regardless of race) essentially buying their way into these hallowed institutions? If the kids of rich donors–most of whom are gonna be white–have an increased chance of getting in, I just can’t see mustering up outrage about certain racial or ethnic minorities having an increased chance. But you seem to feel differently. Why?
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### Author:  [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2017, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/202 "2017-04-10T19:33:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> Wrong. I treated you to the assumption that practically all the kids who get accepted to ALL the ivies wouldn’t be African immigrants but for AA.
Has anyone yet asked for cite for this? I mean the claim that getting into all the Ivies is something only African immigrants can really lay claim to with few exception. I’m not aware that anyone keeps statistics on this kind of thing.
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### Author:  [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/203 "2017-04-10T20:15:14Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#):
>
> Has anyone yet asked for cite for this? I mean the claim that getting into all the Ivies is something only African immigrants can really lay claim to with few exception. I’m not aware that anyone keeps statistics on this kind of thing.
I am having a hard time finding studies that are not behind a paywall so sorry to cite a blog but yes that claim was a false dichotomy.
Affirmative action does help improve the balance and banning affirmative action does negatively impact diversity but not in absolute claims like above.
> **[Here’s What Happens When You Ban Affirmative Action In College Admissions](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/heres-what-happens-when-you-ban-affirmative-action-in-college-admissions/)**
>
> UPDATE (June 23, 11 a.m.): On Thursday morning, the Supreme Court voted 4-3 to uphold the affirmative action program of the University of Texas at Austin. The p…
This is a complex issue and is not a “black or white” subject.
Edited to add that there were public cites in the link I posted above, not sure why scholar wasn’t finding them.
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### Author:  [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)
#### Post date: [April 10, 2017, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/204 "2017-04-10T23:18:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> You seem to be assuming that the only way blacks can get into Ivy League schools is because of AA.
For competetive schools, this is pretty much true. And without race-based quotas it would be true for many more whites as well…asians would pretty much dominate if we just looked at pure scores and things like “other cool stuff this kid does like play the violin or volunteer for GreenPeace.” There are enough asians with top-everything to fill most of the spots unless you take race into consideration.
See [here](http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/51_graduate_admissions_test.html)for some sobering points on Med School, e.g.:
_“If these institutions were to choose their students solely on test scores and college grades, it is clear that in the intense competition for places at medical schools in the United States, African Americans would be at a severe disadvantage in relation to the highest scoring whites. Under these circumstances no blacks would be admitted to the nation’s most selective schools of medicine.”_
As one who sat on an admissions committee for many years for a medical school, I sometimes wonder if those who don’t have direct knowledge really understand how hard it is to find qualified black students at top tier universities. Making the the issue more complicated is that, just as with whites (and asians), top tier students come from wealthy backgrounds. So you can’t adjust for income if you want the best black students–they don’t come from poor backgrounds. They come from privileged ones. You have to use race-alone as your criterion for getting black students into top-tier universities because all other attempts to normalize qualifications fail to account for the fact that these highly privileged black students still don’t perform on par with other self-identified “races.”
This is why we MUST protect race-based AA. No other schema will protect the diversity we want…
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