# Is Affirmative Action focused on the wrong things?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 5, 2017, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792 "2017-04-05T02:21:14Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/21 "2017-04-05T18:42:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> If this is true to any extent, I think it’s likely true because “average” students don’t study abroad… only bright and motivated students study abroad. So no matter what country they’re coming from, exchange/foreign students are likely to be the “cream of the crop” from their country.
Most of the Asian immigrants I know are not here as result of a foreign exchange program. There are a lot more dry cleaners and restaurant owners than folks pursuing their phd or an engineering degree.
> [@](#):
>
> I think this is probably true the other way too – I don’t know for sure, but I bet other countries probably notice and remark upon how American exchange students seem to do very well. Anyone have any experience with this?
Once again, I don’t think we are talking about exchange students here. I don’t know that the children of American ex-pats in London are getting into Oxbridge at much higher rates than the rest of the applicant pool.
> [@](#):
>
> It’s to adjust for an unfair playing field. It’s not perfect, and not exact, but IMO it equalizes opportunity to a better extent than it would be without it. As to immigrants, I see no reason to believe that African immigrants (which include members of my family) or foreign students are less discriminated against than African Americans, even if they are typically good students.
Sure its better than nothing but there seems to be an awful lot of leakage.
So we keep affirmative action around until there is no more racism or discrimination? I thought the notion was that we have more or less levelled the playing field but centuries of slavery and segregation had done such harm to the black community that remediation was in order. It wasn’t supposed to be a panacea against the effects of racism, was it?
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/22 "2017-04-05T18:47:22Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#):
>
> Affirmative Action is a bad practice.
>
> 1 ) It gives the job or scholarship based on ethnicity or gender over ability.
>
> 2 ) The person who gets the spot often is viewed as a privileged and under qualified.
>
> 3 ) Any USA school that received federal or state funding should not pick underqualified foreign-born students over natural born USA citizens.
Wait. Why does citizenship matter? For decades America has been accepting the best and brightest from around the world. Its how we won WWII, its how we won the cold war and its probably how we are going to dig our way out of this economic death spiral we find ourselves in right now.
> [@](#):
>
> The best solution is for these schools or organizations to give money to K-12 schools in underprivileged areas to produce their own rightly qualified individuals. Simply pick the best students and fund challenging programs for them until high school graduation.
>
> And perhaps give a little bit less to the basketball or football programs.
I agree with the notion that we should invest more in the K-12 programs. I would emphasize the pre-K to 8th grade. Its sad but by the time they are in high school, its too late. We are watching generation after generation of poor black students get frittered away by attempts to bring them up to speed when its time to apply to colleges.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/23 "2017-04-05T18:49:49Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> Most of the Asian immigrants I know are not here as result of a foreign exchange program. There are a lot more dry cleaners and restaurant owners than folks pursuing their phd or an engineering degree.
>
> Once again, I don’t think we are talking about exchange students here. I don’t know that the children of American ex-pats in London are getting into Oxbridge at much higher rates than the rest of the applicant pool.
Okay; I didn’t just mean students in exchange programs – I also mean students motivated enough to move their entire lives to another country to study. That’s tough to do, and takes a lot of motivation and fortitude, and thus not “average” students, I think.
> [@](#):
>
> Sure its better than nothing but there seems to be an awful lot of leakage.
>
> So we keep affirmative action around until there is no more racism or discrimination? I thought the notion was that we have more or less levelled the playing field but centuries of slavery and segregation had done such harm to the black community that remediation was in order. It wasn’t supposed to be a panacea against the effects of racism, was it?
IMO we keep AA until there is actual equal opportunity (or close enough such that inequalities are hard to find) in our society. We’ll know we’ve reached this when wealth and income are mostly equal; education levels are mostly equal; representation in advanced professions/CEOs/politicians/etc. is mostly equal; etc.
---
### Author:  [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/24 "2017-04-05T18:52:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> It’s to adjust for an unfair playing field. It’s not perfect, and not exact, but IMO it equalizes opportunity to a better extent than it would be without it. As to immigrants, I see no reason to believe that African immigrants (which include members of my family) or foreign students are less discriminated against than African Americans, even if they are typically good students.
The girl in question is a Nigerian immigrant. Nigerian Americans have a much higher rate of college education than white americans and a higher per capita income. They obviously do not need the playing field adjusted.
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### Author:  [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/25 "2017-04-05T18:56:50Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> I think the criticism is that affirmative action is a form of race based discrimination. A pretty extreme remedy for any problem or issue. Creating a diverse environment is not nearly as tolerable a basis for race based discrimination as reversing the effects of slavery, segregation and American Indian genocide.
>
> Can you make an argument that diversity is important enough to justify race based discrimination?
Promotion of diversity is currently the only rationale for affirmative action that has been found legal by the courts. I don’t feel it is a good thing and would never argue for it except for ideological diversity which is useful for combating group think.
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### Author:  [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/26 "2017-04-05T18:57:01Z")
I honestly don’t think “affirmative action” is the right way to describe the way the highly selective colleges handle minority admissions. These schools aren’t making sure to let in under-represented minorities to make up for the injustice of slavery, nor to fix social problems in the modern era. They are ensuring diverse classes because that’s what the full-pay students and parents want; the want exposure to minorities and poor people in a controlled and safe environment so that kids that grew up in a bubble can learn to function in a diverse society. It’s literally part of the product they are selling. Its’ the same reason they gender balance: people want to go to a gender-balanced school. Right now, that benefits boys some places/programs and girls in others.
There’s also no way to talk about which minority students got in “because of” affirmative action. Their are many more qualified students turned away than get in. Being qualified gets you, at best, a lottery ticket. If you are a member of a group that has fewer applicants, your odds are better. You might well have gotten in had you not been a member of that group–it’s entirely possible that kids “less qualified”–though that’s really hard to pin down at this level–did. But you also might well have gotten that rejection notice.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/27 "2017-04-05T18:58:45Z")
> [@puddleglum](#):
>
> The girl in question is a Nigerian immigrant. Nigerian Americans have a much higher rate of college education than white americans and a higher per capita income. They obviously do not need the playing field adjusted.
Not necessarily – they could well be discriminated against, and are earning/learning less than they otherwise would. We might be getting Nigerian Einsteins and Stephen Hawkings every month, but due to discrimination, they can only achieve well paid upper-middle-class engineering positions.
I’m not sure of that, by the way. Maybe it’s because, for some reason, Nigerian immigrants are treated better by our society than African Americans.
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### Author:  [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/28 "2017-04-05T19:01:31Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> Maybe there is something to AA that is about combating the injustices of the past, but it really is about making a better present and future.
>
> I don’t know that AA is what is best utilized to combat racism, but racism does impact minorities ability to get into good schools and to get good jobs. AA is not so much a quota system for admission, but is a system to help to ensure that unconscious biases do not cause qualified minorities to be overlooked.
This is not true. If unconscious bias was a problem then it has an easy fix. Just make remove all indicators of race from the application process. When orchestras wanted to get rid of bias they made everyone audition behind screens, they did not give certain people extra help.
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### Author:  [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/29 "2017-04-05T19:03:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> I agree that immigrants have an advantage in the same way that the Fremen in Dune had an advantage. But should these children of immigrants be beneficiaries of affirmative action that was implemented to reverse some of the effects of slavery and segregation?
>
> I don’t know what you mean by this? The children of African immigrants (and caribean immigrants) are grossly over-represented in the ivy leagues (and pretty much every other competitive college) in large part due to affirmative action that wasn’t really intended for them.
>
> If you are saying that we will see more Asians with immigrant parents at great school than 4th or 5th generation Asian kids, then I agree, that’s probably right. But that doesn’t really rebutt the notion that affirmative action is mostly helping kids whose family immigrated to this country after the civil rights movement.
\*in large part due to affirmative action that wasn’t really intended for them.
\*
Affirmative action and diversity quotas are 2 separate but closely related issues. If Harvard can fill its quota for black students with African students who are effectively indistinguishable from their other students academically, that’s what Harvard will do.
If they choose only ante bellum black American students, there just aren’t that many who would be competitive at Harvard. Harvard then has to drastically reduce the number of black students it admits, or admit black students who will either fail or switch to the easiest majors.
I’ve argued on these boards before for restricting Affirmative Action to enrolled members of Native American tribes and verifiable descendants of American slaves. Much smaller numbers of people than are currently eligible for Aff Act,so less disruption, and much more historical justification.
Making immigrants eligible for Aff Act as soon as they hit the States is a foolish, unsustainable process. This is particularly the case for Latino immigrants, and it has contributed to the anti-immigrant backlash against Latinos.
But again, Aff Act is on the way out. Gorsuch is certain to be a vote against on the next case that comes up.
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### Author:  [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/30 "2017-04-05T19:06:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Not necessarily – they could well be discriminated against, and are earning/learning less than they otherwise would. We might be getting Nigerian Einsteins and Stephen Hawkings every month, but due to discrimination, they can only achieve well paid upper-middle-class engineering positions.
>
> I’m not sure of that, by the way. Maybe it’s because, for some reason, Nigerian immigrants are treated better by our society than African Americans.
Some jabroni upthread said :“IMO we keep AA until there is actual equal opportunity (or close enough such that inequalities are hard to find) in our society. We’ll know we’ve reached this when wealth and income are mostly equal; education levels are mostly equal”
Since Nigerian americans have already achieved parity and gone beyond in both educational attainment and income doesn’t that by your own logic mean that they no longer need affirmative action?
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### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/31 "2017-04-05T19:06:06Z")
> [@puddleglum](#):
>
> This is not true. If unconscious bias was a problem then it has an easy fix. Just make remove all indicators of race from the application process. When orchestras wanted to get rid of bias they made everyone audition behind screens, they did not give certain people extra help.
So, they don’t see a name, they don’t have an in person interview with the student, they don’t read the entrance essay, they don’t talk to their HS teachers or guidance counselors, they don’t look at any extra curricular activity they have done?
All of those can give some pretty strong clues as to the race of the applicant.
College admission is more than just tests and grades.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/32 "2017-04-05T19:06:27Z")
> [@puddleglum](#):
>
> This is not true. If unconscious bias was a problem then it has an easy fix. Just make remove all indicators of race from the application process. When orchestras wanted to get rid of bias they made everyone audition behind screens, they did not give certain people extra help.
That only works for applications. What about promotions inside an organization?
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/33 "2017-04-05T19:11:23Z")
> [@puddleglum](#):
>
> Some jabroni upthread said :“IMO we keep AA until there is actual equal opportunity (or close enough such that inequalities are hard to find) in our society. We’ll know we’ve reached this when wealth and income are mostly equal; education levels are mostly equal”
> Since Nigerian americans have already achieved parity and gone beyond in both educational attainment and income doesn’t that by your own logic mean that they no longer need affirmative action?
It’s possible, but for such a small group it could be a statistical fluke or some other explanation – if it could be demonstrated that Nigerian Americans didn’t face significant discrimination (this would probably take a few generations to know for sure), then I would be open to considering exemptions for that group from AA.
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### Author:  [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/34 "2017-04-05T19:20:26Z")
And then there’s [Martin Altenburg](http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/05/us/nd-teen-ivy-league-trnd/). Possibly a German immigrant or descended from German and European immigrants who were never slaves. Affirmative action was never meant for him. This is affirmative action run amok.
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### Author:  [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/35 "2017-04-05T19:22:22Z")
> [@puddleglum](#):
>
> Some jabroni upthread said …
I’m unsure if this is meant as a pejorative so I’ll assume positive intent here. Please avoid appearing to insult other posters in this fashion. If you feel you must, the BBQ Pit is right around the corner.
[/moderating]
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/36 "2017-04-05T19:22:51Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#):
>
> And then there’s [Martin Altenburg](http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/05/us/nd-teen-ivy-league-trnd/). Possibly a German immigrant or descended from German and European immigrants who were never slaves. Affirmative action was never meant for him. This is affirmative action run amok.
It’s an imperfect system… a perfect one is probably impossible. In an imperfect system, sometimes assistance will go to those who don’t need them. This is much better, IMO, than a system in which assistance doesn’t get to someone who needs it.
But is there any evidence this particular person benefited from AA?
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/37 "2017-04-05T19:25:44Z")
> [@Bone](#):
>
> I’m unsure if this is meant as a pejorative so I’ll assume positive intent here. Please avoid appearing to insult other posters in this fashion. If you feel you must, the BBQ Pit is right around the corner.
>
> [/moderating]
I took no offense, and assumed it was a playful jab.
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### Author:  [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/38 "2017-04-05T19:31:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> But is there any evidence this particular person benefited from AA?
No evidence whatsoever. Just as in the case of Ifeoma White-Thorpe.
That was kind of my point.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/39 "2017-04-05T19:32:16Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#):
>
> No evidence whatsoever. Just as in the case of Ifeoma White-Thorpe.
>
> That was kind of my point.
Ahh, thanks.
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### Author:  [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/40 "2017-04-05T19:35:16Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> So, they don’t see a name, they don’t have an in person interview with the student, they don’t read the entrance essay, they don’t talk to their HS teachers or guidance counselors, they don’t look at any extra curricular activity they have done?
>
> All of those can give some pretty strong clues as to the race of the applicant.
>
> College admission is more than just tests and grades.
Don’t see a name, have interviews over the phone, read the entrance essay but forbid race talk, don’t talk to teachers, include extra curriculars that don’t have to do with race.
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