# Is Affirmative Action focused on the wrong things?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 5, 2017, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792 "2017-04-05T02:21:14Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/41 "2017-04-05T19:44:10Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> Maybe there is something to AA that is about combating the injustices of the past, but it really is about making a better present and future.
So we keep AA around as long as racism exists? Or as long as any disparity exists?
> [@](#):
>
> I don’t know that AA is what is best utilized to combat racism, but racism does impact minorities ability to get into good schools and to get good jobs. AA is not so much a quota system for admission, but is a system to help to ensure that unconscious biases do not cause qualified minorities to be overlooked.
Really, and how does that work out for well qualified Asian students that are passed over for less qualified students of pretty much every race and creed? Should we have AA for Asians as well? If we expand the mission of AA to include what you are proposing there is really never going to be an end to AA and the criticisms of it will be real and valid.
> [@](#):
>
> I see no reason to assume that. Just as I don’t assume that the racial make-up of the NBA is due to AA.
>
> It could be that these children are not only highly intelligent, but also highly motivated, in that they can directly see the sacrifices that their families made to give them this opportunity.
>
> To make the assumption without any reason other than their race that they only got accepted into these colleges because of AA is exactly the type of racism that makes AA necessary in the first place.
Bullshit. Its one thing to say all these African immigrants kids could get into these top schools on their own without any consideration of their race. Its an entirely different thing to say they got into all of them.
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### Author:  [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/42 "2017-04-05T19:47:28Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#):
>
> No evidence whatsoever. Just as in the case of Ifeoma White-Thorpe.
>
> That was kind of my point.
Which, to me, is why AA is still needed in general - because people see a black person succeed and immediately assume something something Affirmative Action!
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/43 "2017-04-05T19:48:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> That was my first thought, too.
>
> Do you seriously think there is any way to know for sure? You seem to be assuming that the only way blacks can get into Ivy League schools is because of AA.
Bullshit. I am assuming that the most likely way that black students students are almost the ONLY ones getting into EVERY ivy league school is because of AA.
Do you seriously doubt that AA played a role in the decision of EVERY Ivy League to put a well qualified candidate into the yes pile. Do you honestly think that all of these black students would have gotten into EVERY Ivy league school if they were Asian or white? C’mon now.
---
### Author:  [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/44 "2017-04-05T19:49:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> It’s possible, but for such a small group it could be a statistical fluke or some other explanation – if it could be demonstrated that Nigerian Americans didn’t face significant discrimination (this would probably take a few generations to know for sure), then I would be open to considering exemptions for that group from AA.
There are 300,000 Nigerian Americans, too many for it to be a statistical fluke.
The problem is that if the educational and income advantages for Nigerian Americans persists it must mean that not only do they not face significant discrimination, they have been given certain advantages.
The other obvious answer would be that total equality in outcomes is not a good measure of fairness of society. Otherwise how do you account for Scottish Americans making more than Irish Americans, or Japanese Americans making twice as much per capita as Burmese American, or Ghanian Americans making so much more than Somali Americans.
---
### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/45 "2017-04-05T19:50:51Z")
> [@puddleglum](#):
>
> Don’t see a name, have interviews over the phone, read the entrance essay but forbid race talk, don’t talk to teachers, include extra curriculars that don’t have to do with race.
So, no name, does make phone conversations awkward, but I suppose (of course, the student needs to make sure that they don’t have an accent that might give away their ethnicity.). Entrance essays often ask about a student’s past, and what motivates them, so the student needs to be especially careful not to touch on the forbidden subjects as they describe their experience in school and life, and what experiences motivated them. I am not sure that not talking to teachers or guidance counselors of the kid’s HS is a great idea, as it gives a good indication as to how they student will do in college. Students will need to make sure that they do not do any extra curricular activities that may give away their race.
I dunno, it does seem like just keeping in mind unconscious bias, and correcting for it, over correcting if need be, is simpler and fairer way of going about it, rather than crippling a minority’s chances to get in before they even start the application process.
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### Author:  [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/46 "2017-04-05T19:56:59Z")
It might honestly be that obsessively over-applying to every Ivy is something pretty weird, and the sort of thing you see a LOT more in certain groups. For example, anecdotally, there’s a LOT of West African kids who graduate high school in three years because that seems to be really meaningful to African parents and they push their kids to do it. Plenty of other kids could do the same thing, but it’s not considered worth the trade-offs.
I supervise 50 selective-admissible college students a year, and I’ve never had a kid apply to all 8 Ivys. There’s no reason to beyond pride, and that’s a lot of work and expense for pride. It’s much smarter money to apply to one or two you are particularly interested in, and then go more broadly into the highly selective group. And plenty of kids that are Ivy-admissible don’t apply there at all–they apply to places like Williams or Mudd or Stanford (for 3 very different options).
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/47 "2017-04-05T19:59:31Z")
> [@puddleglum](#):
>
> There are 300,000 Nigerian Americans, too many for it to be a statistical fluke.
> The problem is that if the educational and income advantages for Nigerian Americans persists it must mean that not only do they not face significant discrimination, they have been given certain advantages.
Do you have a cite for the 300,000 along with their superior outcomes? Not that I’m contesting it, I’m just curious.
> [@](#):
>
> The other obvious answer would be that total equality in outcomes is not a good measure of fairness of society. Otherwise how do you account for Scottish Americans making more than Irish Americans, or Japanese Americans making twice as much per capita as Burmese American, or Ghanian Americans making so much more than Somali Americans.
Certainly not a perfect measure, but for utterly massive groups like “whites” and “blacks”, I think it’s probably the best we could see.
---
### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/48 "2017-04-05T20:04:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> So we keep AA around as long as racism exists? Or as long as any disparity exists?
Any time there are systemic inequalities, we should fight to eliminate them.
This doesn’t mean that AA will be forever. AA may not be the best choice for combatting inequalities.
But yeah, as long as inequalities exist, they should be addressed.
> [@](#):
>
> Really, and how does that work out for well qualified Asian students that are passed over for less qualified students of pretty much every race and creed? Should we have AA for Asians as well? If we expand the mission of AA to include what you are proposing there is really never going to be an end to AA and the criticisms of it will be real and valid.
If Asian students are being discriminated against, then that is an inequality to be addressed.
Is AA the best way to address it? I dunno, but it would be one way.
If qualified asians are being passed over, then there may a similar unconscious racial bias bias to be countered.
> [@](#):
>
> Bullshit. Its one thing to say all these African immigrants kids could get into these top schools on their own without any consideration of their race. Its an entirely different thing to say they got into all of them.
With no evidence one way or the other, you can make any assumptions you like.
I see no reason to make the assumption that she was not capable of getting in on her own merits.
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> Bullshit. I am assuming that the most likely way that black students students are almost the ONLY ones getting into EVERY ivy league school is because of AA.
>
> Do you seriously doubt that AA played a role in the decision of EVERY Ivy League to put a well qualified candidate into the yes pile. Do you honestly think that all of these black students would have gotten into EVERY Ivy league school if they were Asian or white? C’mon now.
Did [this guy](http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/05/us/nd-teen-ivy-league-trnd/) get in by AA? Why do you think that she did, unless you think that there is something inherently better about this guy than her?
> [@puddleglum](#):
>
> There are 300,000 Nigerian Americans, too many for it to be a statistical fluke.
> The problem is that if the educational and income advantages for Nigerian Americans persists it must mean that not only do they not face significant discrimination, they have been given certain advantages.
The thing about immigrants is that almost by definition, we do not get the center of the bell curve. So the idea that out of this already exceptional population comes some exceptional students shouldn’t be surprising. It also should not be a reflection on those who are not so fortunate.
> [@](#):
>
> The other obvious answer would be that total equality in outcomes is not a good measure of fairness of society. Otherwise how do you account for Scottish Americans making more than Irish Americans, or Japanese Americans making twice as much per capita as Burmese American, or Ghanian Americans making so much more than Somali Americans.
No one has ever said anything about equality of outcomes. Equality of opportunity, however, that’s a different thing.
---
### Author:  [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/49 "2017-04-05T20:06:44Z")
> [@Icarus](#):
>
> Which, to me, is why AA is still needed in general - because people see a black person succeed and immediately assume something something Affirmative Action!
The reason they do this is because it is most likely true. After affirmative action was banned in California, the number of black students who enrolled dropped 58% the next year. Studies have shown that black students are given a bump in admissions equivalent to 200 to 400 points under the old SAT scoring.
No one thinks this in fields where affirmative action does not happen like music or sports.
---
### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/50 "2017-04-05T20:11:56Z")
> [@puddleglum](#):
>
> The reason they do this is because it is most likely true.
And here, we have the very definition of bias.
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### Author:  [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/51 "2017-04-05T20:12:40Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> So, no name, does make phone conversations awkward, but I suppose (of course, the student needs to make sure that they don’t have an accent that might give away their ethnicity.). Entrance essays often ask about a student’s past, and what motivates them, so the student needs to be especially careful not to touch on the forbidden subjects as they describe their experience in school and life, and what experiences motivated them. I am not sure that not talking to teachers or guidance counselors of the kid’s HS is a great idea, as it gives a good indication as to how they student will do in college. Students will need to make sure that they do not do any extra curricular activities that may give away their race.
>
> I dunno, it does seem like just keeping in mind unconscious bias, and correcting for it, over correcting if need be, is simpler and fairer way of going about it, rather than crippling a minority’s chances to get in before they even start the application process.
That assumes you know precisely how much unconscious bias affects decisions. Since you don’t there is no way to accurately account for it.
[Interviews](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/nov/22/why-job-interviews-are-pointless) are awful ways to tell if someone is good for something. Entrance essays should be about telling if someone can write and not for telling bs emotional stories. GPA can tell if a student is hard working and SATs can tell if they are smart. That is what schools need to know.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/52 "2017-04-05T20:15:47Z")
> [@puddleglum](#):
>
> The reason they do this is because it is most likely true. After affirmative action was banned in California, the number of black students who enrolled dropped 58% the next year. Studies have shown that black students are given a bump in admissions equivalent to 200 to 400 points under the old SAT scoring.
> No one thinks this in fields where affirmative action does not happen like music or sports.
If there’s still significant bias in society, that could cause lower test scores due to less motivated students, different expectations by teachers, and other factors.
---
### Author:  [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/53 "2017-04-05T20:24:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Do you have a cite for the 300,000 along with their superior outcomes? Not that I’m contesting it, I’m just curious.
>
> Certainly not a perfect measure, but for utterly massive groups like “whites” and “blacks”, I think it’s probably the best we could see.
[Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigerian_Americans#Modern_Immigration) is the 300,000 number. [Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income) is a list of ethnicities by household income. [Here](http://www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-most-educated-in-the-U-S-1600808.php) is a story about Nigerian Americans being the most educated ethnicity in the country.
Incomes and educational attainment of different ethnic groups vary widely in the US as they do in every other country in the world. There is no reason to believe the main difference in discrimination.
---
### Author:  [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/54 "2017-04-05T20:32:56Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> The thing about immigrants is that almost by definition, we do not get the center of the bell curve. So the idea that out of this already exceptional population comes some exceptional students shouldn’t be surprising. It also should not be a reflection on those who are not so fortunate.
> No one has ever said anything about equality of outcomes. Equality of opportunity, however, that’s a different thing.
The thing about immigrants is that they are different than everyone else. But so are non-immigrants. It should not surprise people when people from different cultures are different. That is not evidence of discrimination.
Someone who is definitely not a jabrone said in post #23 that equality of outcome was the way we would know when equality of opportunity was obtained.
---
### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/55 "2017-04-05T20:41:56Z")
> [@puddleglum](#):
>
> The thing about immigrants is that they are different than everyone else. But so are non-immigrants. It should not surprise people when people from different cultures are different. That is not evidence of discrimination.
My point was not about cultures, my point was that out of their population, we get the cream of the crop.
> [@](#):
>
> Someone who is definitely not a jabrone said in post #23 that equality of outcome was the way we would know when equality of opportunity was obtained.
I do believe that iiandyiiii said “mostly” equal. I am not going to say I know exactly how mostly he meant, but there is a difference between “equal outcome” and “mostly equal outcome.”
The first is pretty much impossible to achieve without some pervasive and nearly impossible programs, and would not actually do much for society. The only reason to bring it up would be to try to argue against a strawman, as there is not anyone arguing in favor of that.
The second is a reasonable goal. If you look at the massive disparity in outcomes now, then saying it would be better if they were more equal, or even “mostly” equal is a perfectly reasonable position.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/56 "2017-04-05T20:57:14Z")
> [@puddleglum](#):
>
> [Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigerian_Americans#Modern_Immigration) is the 300,000 number. [Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income) is a list of ethnicities by household income. [Here](http://www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-most-educated-in-the-U-S-1600808.php) is a story about Nigerian Americans being the most educated ethnicity in the country.
>
> Incomes and educational attainment of different ethnic groups vary widely in the US as they do in every other country in the world. There is no reason to believe the main difference in discrimination.
Considering that the two groups (black and native Americans) who suffered, by far, the most horrific and brutal discrimination and oppression through American history, are at the bottom of so many of these outcomes, it’s very reasonable to believe that discrimination is involved.
It seems beyond credibility that it would just coincidentally line up that the worst treated groups through our nation’s history just so happen to be the least wealthy and most represented in prison per capita.
These things are related.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/57 "2017-04-06T00:49:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Okay; I didn’t just mean students in exchange programs – I also mean students motivated enough to move their entire lives to another country to study. That’s tough to do, and takes a lot of motivation and fortitude, and thus not “average” students, I think.
>
> IMO we keep AA until there is actual equal opportunity (or close enough such that inequalities are hard to find) in our society. We’ll know we’ve reached this when wealth and income are mostly equal; education levels are mostly equal; representation in advanced professions/CEOs/politicians/etc. is mostly equal; etc.
It seems like you think that if we had a level playing field then we would have level results?
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/58 "2017-04-06T01:16:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Not necessarily – they could well be discriminated against, and are earning/learning less than they otherwise would. We might be getting Nigerian Einsteins and Stephen Hawkings every month, but due to discrimination, they can only achieve well paid upper-middle-class engineering positions.
That sort of rationale can be applied to pretty much every model minority from Asians to Jews.
> [@](#):
>
> I’m not sure of that, by the way. Maybe it’s because, for some reason, Nigerian immigrants are treated better by our society than African Americans.
Or maybe its a matter of culture. The culture that immigrants (including Nigerian immigrants) is more likely to breed success than the culture that exists in African American communities today.
---
### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/59 "2017-04-06T01:17:46Z")
> [@MandaJo](#):
>
> I honestly don’t think “affirmative action” is the right way to describe the way the highly selective colleges handle minority admissions. These schools aren’t making sure to let in under-represented minorities to make up for the injustice of slavery, nor to fix social problems in the modern era. They are ensuring diverse classes because that’s what the full-pay students and parents want; the want exposure to minorities and poor people in a controlled and safe environment so that kids that grew up in a bubble can learn to function in a diverse society. It’s literally part of the product they are selling. Its’ the same reason they gender balance: people want to go to a gender-balanced school. Right now, that benefits boys some places/programs and girls in others.
>
> There’s also no way to talk about which minority students got in “because of” affirmative action. Their are many more qualified students turned away than get in. Being qualified gets you, at best, a lottery ticket. If you are a member of a group that has fewer applicants, your odds are better. You might well have gotten in had you not been a member of that group–it’s entirely possible that kids “less qualified”–though that’s really hard to pin down at this level–did. But you also might well have gotten that rejection notice.
If its a lottery ticket then why is it that members of one small subgroup seems to win such a disproportionate number of lotteries?
---
### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/60 "2017-04-06T01:20:21Z")
> [@puddleglum](#):
>
> This is not true. If unconscious bias was a problem then it has an easy fix. Just make remove all indicators of race from the application process. When orchestras wanted to get rid of bias they made everyone audition behind screens, they did not give certain people extra help.
Its hard to achieve the results they want if you make things race blind.
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