# Is Affirmative Action focused on the wrong things?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 5, 2017, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792 "2017-04-05T02:21:14Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/61 "2017-04-06T01:28:27Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> So, they don’t see a name, they don’t have an in person interview with the student, they don’t read the entrance essay, they don’t talk to their HS teachers or guidance counselors, they don’t look at any extra curricular activity they have done?
>
> All of those can give some pretty strong clues as to the race of the applicant.
>
> College admission is more than just tests and grades.
The Chinese imperial exam was an essay test. They removed all markers and the test proctors were able to grade it for all sorts of subjective stuff and spit out an objective ranking of the test takers. They were able to do this thousands of years ago.
Extra curriculars are not that difficult to grade on a spectrum.
I suspect there is some way to score interviews and pass that score on to the admissions committee.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/62 "2017-04-06T01:30:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> That only works for applications. What about promotions inside an organization?
And in what situation do we have affirmative action for promotions within an organization to combat unconscious discrimination?
I know some fire departments tried it and it didn’t work too well.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/63 "2017-04-06T01:34:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> It’s an imperfect system… a perfect one is probably impossible. In an imperfect system, sometimes assistance will go to those who don’t need them. This is much better, IMO, than a system in which assistance doesn’t get to someone who needs it.
>
> But is there any evidence this particular person benefited from AA?
I think he was being sarcatistic. that by showing one example of a non black student getting into all the schools, it shows that it is possible to get into all 8 ivies without AA. Noone ever said otherwise. But if you read the end of the story where they list the others who have achieved this in recent years, they are all black. mostly black immigrants from Africa. mostly black immigrants from the African nation of Nigeria.
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### Author:  [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/64 "2017-04-06T01:52:58Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> If its a lottery ticket then why is it that members of one small subgroup seems to win such a disproportionate number of lotteries?
I was pretty clear that not everyone is in the same pool.
And, as I speculated before, “people that apply to 8 Ivys” is a really small group. I’ve never seen anyone do it, and our kids get waivers, so it’s not even the $80 application fee that’s stopping them. So I can readily buy that Nigerian-American communities put a lot of stick in this achievement for whatever reason, and so push kids to try for it. It may well be that all the other kids who might potentially achieve this don’t try, cuz it’s frankly pointless.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/65 "2017-04-06T01:54:02Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> Any time there are systemic inequalities, we should fight to eliminate them.
What systemic inequalities are we seeing?
What systemic inequalities are we seeing that would be remedied by having middle/upper class African immigrants admitted to selective colleges at higher rates than their qualifications would justify?
> [@](#):
>
> This doesn’t mean that AA will be forever. AA may not be the best choice for combatting inequalities.
I think that unless we severely restrict AA to the descendants of slaves and American Indians, we are going to see the end of AA altogether.
> [@](#):
>
> But yeah, as long as inequalities exist, they should be addressed.
By any means and no matter the cost?
> [@](#):
>
> If Asian students are being discriminated against, then that is an inequality to be addressed.
>
> Is AA the best way to address it? I dunno, but it would be one way.
>
> If qualified asians are being passed over, then there may a similar unconscious racial bias bias to be countered.
But until we address inequality for other folks lets just concentrate on AA for Nigerian immigrants and the descendants of Caribbeans for now?
> [@](#):
>
> With no evidence one way or the other, you can make any assumptions you like.
And I see no evidence for bias against blacks in the admissions process that would justify AA.
You know there is a difference between evidence and proof, right?
Unless the colleges come out and state that race played a factor in her admissions, we will never “know” but the fact that so many of the folks that get into all the ivies are black immigrants is evidence that affirmative action is playing a role.
> [@](#):
>
> I see no reason to make the assumption that she was not capable of getting in on her own merits.
I’m not talking about just her. If it was just her, it would never have registered. It was the fact that every one of the students that achieved this was black. It was also the fact that the folks who were achieving this were not the descendants of American slaves.
> [@](#):
>
> Did [this guy](http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/05/us/nd-teen-ivy-league-trnd/) get in by AA? Why do you think that she did, unless you think that there is something inherently better about this guy than her?
Not her specifically but blacks generally. There is no AA for white dudes and there is for blacks. I don’t have a problem with AA. I have a problem with AA being used to benefit the children of African immigrants. We are distorting a system and implementing race based discrimination in order to give advantages to the children of black immigrants.
> [@](#):
>
> The thing about immigrants is that almost by definition, we do not get the center of the bell curve. So the idea that out of this already exceptional population comes some exceptional students shouldn’t be surprising. It also should not be a reflection on those who are not so fortunate.
And it doesn’t strike you as odd that the only immigrants groups that are producing these exceptional students are black immigrants?
> [@](#):
>
> No one has ever said anything about equality of outcomes. Equality of opportunity, however, that’s a different thing.
Didn’t iiandyii say exactly this? Paraphrase: We will know we have a level playing field when we achieve relatively level results.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/66 "2017-04-06T01:58:31Z")
> [@puddleglum](#):
>
> The reason they do this is because it is most likely true. After affirmative action was banned in California, the number of black students who enrolled dropped 58% the next year.
This was only at the top two schools. Across the UC system the enrollment of black students did not drop much. But a lot of Berkely black admits probably went to UCLA and a lot of UCLA black admits probably went to UCSD and so on down the ladder.
> [@](#):
>
> Studies have shown that black students are given a bump in admissions equivalent to 200 to 400 points under the old SAT scoring.
> No one thinks this in fields where affirmative action does not happen like music or sports.
Like I said, I am perfectly happy to have AA for the descendants of slaves and American indians. hell you can have reasonable quotas if you want; but we should not be applying AA to the children of African immigrants.
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### Author:  [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/67 "2017-04-06T02:00:47Z")
[America still is the land of opportunities for black immigrants—but not their kids](https://qz.com/198512/america-still-is-the-land-of-opportunities-for-black-immigrants-but-not-their-kids/)
> [@](#):
>
> A new paper (pdf) from University of Chicago PhD candidate Alison Rauh finds that black immigrants tend to be more successful than black Americans. They out-earn black natives (after accounting for age) and are more likely to be employed. This is not surprising; white immigrant groups outperform their native cohort too. But what’s most intriguing is how their children fare. The children of black immigrants are more likely to go to and complete college than native blacks (and whites) and are less likely to drop out of high school.
>
> But, the fact that children of black immigrants earn more than their parents comes with an important caveat. Like all ethnic groups, the children of black immigrants only out-earn first generation immigrants if they work, but many children of black immigrants don’t work. Their rate of idleness (not being in labor force or in school) is much higher than the idleness rates of whites or black immigrants. It is near the very high rate of idleness for native-born black Americans, in spite of their having more education. At nearly every education level, black immigrant children have a higher rate of idleness than whites or first generation black immigrants.
>
> Children of black immigrants are an interesting group. It seems their economic outcomes go one of two ways: They either out-perform their parents, continuing a rise through the economic ranks or they flounder and face the same economic challenges of native-born black Americans. The disparate performance of black immigrants’ children is unique. There is a distribution of outcomes, but on average, children of Asian immigrants out-earn everyone—including native-born whites (their idleness rates also converge to Asian natives but this rate is so low to begin with it’s unremarkable). Second generation Hispanic immigrants are nearly identical, in economic outcomes, to native-born Hispanics.
>
> So why the disparity with blacks? Rauh observed that children of educated, black immigrants (ones who went to college) typically have higher rates of employment and earnings (my friend can rest easy). But parent education doesn’t explain everything. Rauh believes both discrimination and assimilation (subscribing to a culture of not working) also play a role in economic attainment. She measured their impact by looking at where the immigrant families lived and found that children of black immigrants who grow up in a more segregated area (which captures assimilation) or areas that have higher rates of discrimination are less likely to work.
>
> In Slate, Jamelle Bouie recently wrote about how black Americans tend to live in poor, segregated neighborhoods, even if they are middle class because people tend to stay in the neighborhoods they grow up in. He claims this is an impediment to climbing the economic ladder because these communities lack good schools, professional networks, and more exposure violence. Rauh’s research suggests living in a poor, segregated community is not the problem, but rather growing up in one. She found that black immigrants are more likely to work and earn more than native blacks no matter where they live. But community has a bigger impact on their children. Growing up in an environment where blacks are discriminated against might quash the ambition and expectations of children of black immigrants. But a segregated or racist community may not have the same impact on immigrants because they come to American with their identity, education, and ambitions more fully formed.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/68 "2017-04-06T02:05:29Z")
> [@puddleglum](#):
>
> That assumes you know precisely how much unconscious bias affects decisions. Since you don’t there is no way to accurately account for it.
>
> [Interviews](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/nov/22/why-job-interviews-are-pointless) are awful ways to tell if someone is good for something. Entrance essays should be about telling if someone can write and not for telling bs emotional stories. GPA can tell if a student is hard working and SATs can tell if they are smart. That is what schools need to know.
I think it is relevant that some kid had to lived through a war bfeore he lived on a raft for a month before being picked up by pirates only to be rescued by the US Navy before being sent to a refugee camp for a few years was resilient enough to recover from that experience and get reasonably good grades, reasonably good SAT scores and put together a reasonably good application with extracurriculars and everything.
But that’s not a race thing.
Personally I would like to know if the applicant had to overcome adversity that makes their less remarkable scores seem fucking heroic.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/69 "2017-04-06T02:10:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Considering that the two groups (black and native Americans) who suffered, by far, the most horrific and brutal discrimination and oppression through American history, are at the bottom of so many of these outcomes, it’s very reasonable to believe that discrimination is involved.
>
> It seems beyond credibility that it would just coincidentally line up that the worst treated groups through our nation’s history just so happen to be the least wealthy and most represented in prison per capita.
>
> These things are related.
And why are we giving their lunch to middle class/wealthy African immigrants?
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/70 "2017-04-06T02:18:52Z")
> [@MandaJo](#):
>
> I was pretty clear that not everyone is in the same pool.
>
> And, as I speculated before, “people that apply to 8 Ivys” is a really small group. I’ve never seen anyone do it, and our kids get waivers, so it’s not even the $80 application fee that’s stopping them. So I can readily buy that Nigerian-American communities put a lot of stick in this achievement for whatever reason, and so push kids to try for it. It may well be that all the other kids who might potentially achieve this don’t try, cuz it’s frankly pointless.
OK. That makes sense. Perhaps there is something to that.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/71 "2017-04-06T02:21:55Z")
> [@monstro](#):
>
> [America still is the land of opportunities for black immigrants—but not their kids](https://qz.com/198512/america-still-is-the-land-of-opportunities-for-black-immigrants-but-not-their-kids/)
I’d be interested to hear your take on the application of AA to the children of black immigrants.
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### Author:  [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/72 "2017-04-06T02:31:41Z")
I started [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=386138) ten years ago (gasp!) about whether I should allow my, at the time, non-existent children benefit from affirmative action despite the fact that they will grow up economically advantaged.
My kids are now real live people (three of them. I did not see that coming when I started that thread!), and I’ve decided that I have no problem with them benefiting from affirmative action. I’m not going to lie, some of it is pure selfishness. But I also think they could do some good as examples to other American Indian kids, regardless of their upbringing.
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### Author:  [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/73 "2017-04-06T02:52:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> I’d be interested to hear your take on the application of AA to the children of black immigrants.
My take is that you’re making a mountain out of a molehill. I don’t think African immigrants are taking anything from the descendants of American slaves. Nor do I think black people who benefit from AA are taking anything from white people or anyone else for that matter.
What is your take on the article I posted?
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### Author:  [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/74 "2017-04-06T03:16:31Z")
> [@monstro](#):
>
> [America still is the land of opportunities for black immigrants—but not their kids](https://qz.com/198512/america-still-is-the-land-of-opportunities-for-black-immigrants-but-not-their-kids/)
There’s a great Malcolm Gladwell [article](http://gladwell.com/black-like-them/) about the experiences of Carribean immigrants in the '90’s which ends up in pretty much the same place - the immigrant generation does especially well, but their children don’t, necessarily. He breaks out two factors that could account for it - firstly, that the surrounding population can tell the difference between immigrants and native-born African Americans and discriminate less against the immigrants, and secondly that, not having been brought up in a culture which expected failure from them, they had more confidence, and higher expectations of themselves.
Neither of these advantages are available to the children of immigrants.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/75 "2017-04-06T06:16:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> If this is true to any extent, I think it’s likely true because “average” students don’t study abroad… only bright and motivated students study abroad. So no matter what country they’re coming from, exchange/foreign students are likely to be the “cream of the crop” from their country.
These students were refugees.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/76 "2017-04-06T12:16:53Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> And why are we giving their lunch to middle class/wealthy African immigrants?
If you mean why do they get some help too (and in the assumption they don’t need it, which I don’t necessarily share), then it’s probably because they’re a relatively small group and trying to write an exception for them into the rules would cause more harm than good.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/77 "2017-04-06T12:18:08Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> These students were refugees.
That doesn’t necessarily alter my point, unless you think that refugees that make it (or are selected) to schools in the US are entirely “average”. It’s very possible that they’re also, to some degree, the “cream of the crop”.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/78 "2017-04-06T12:19:30Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> That sort of rationale can be applied to pretty much every model minority from Asians to Jews.
The history of treatment of Asians and Jews in the US (which of course includes lots of terrible stuff) is very different than the treatment of people coming from Africa.
> [@](#):
>
> Or maybe its a matter of culture. The culture that immigrants (including Nigerian immigrants) is more likely to breed success than the culture that exists in African American communities today.
It’s possible, and could fit my “cream of the crop” hypothesis.
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### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/79 "2017-04-06T12:44:40Z")
> [@Damuri Ajashi](#):
>
> Personally I would like to know if the applicant had to overcome adversity that makes their less remarkable scores seem fucking heroic.
I think it should be based on smarts and aptitude, rather than who can tell the best hard luck story.
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### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [April 6, 2017, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/80 "2017-04-06T13:14:17Z")
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> I think it should be based on smarts and aptitude, rather than who can tell the best hard luck story.
Do you not think that there is anything to be said for overcoming adversity? That that might not indicate what sort of potential you may have?
If you have one person who grew up in an upper middle class household, went to private school, had private tutors, and gets straight A’s and does well on the SAT’s, is that person going to do better than someone else who, while having slightly lower grades and test scores, achieved those results in spite of growing up poor, in a low quality school, with few teachers to take an interest in their education?
Hard luck story doesn’t just show where you came from, it’s not just an emotional plea, it is an indicator of character, of a will and a desire to succeed. Your higher graded student who has never faced adversity may very well give up the first time they find themselves challenged, while you can see that the student that has already overcome many obstacles will more likely face their challenges and grow.
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