# Is Affirmative Action focused on the wrong things?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 5, 2017, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792 "2017-04-05T02:21:14Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 9
### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/161 "2017-04-07T18:20:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> Where am I assuming anything about black people?
>
> If you find yourself reaching for the race card every time you discuss AA, you might not have a very good argument for AA.
You did seem to assume something about the African student you highlighted.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/162 "2017-04-07T18:25:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> At what point have any of AA defenders said that Asian people shouldn’t be included in AA for areas in which they have unequal opportunity? I’m pretty sure we’d all be open to this.
So what is he standard of evidence that you need to meet to demonstrate discrimination? Are we saying that if Asians are over-represented in college that means there is no discrimination? Or can we dig deeper than that and present evidence that they are getting into colleges at significantly lower rates than similarly credentialed applicants of any other race?
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/163 "2017-04-07T18:29:17Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> So what is he standard of evidence that you need to meet to demonstrate discrimination? Are we saying that if Asians are over-represented in college that means there is no discrimination? Or can we dig deeper than that and present evidence that they are getting into colleges at significantly lower rates than similarly credentialed applicants of any other race?
If Asians are substantially less likely to be well educated, to get good jobs, to have decent incomes, to be fairly treated by the justice system, etc., than most other Americans, then IMO AA ought to include them.
AA isn’t for slight discrimination, IMO, or slight inequalities – it’s for major discrimination and unequal treatment that means a big, big portion of a group doesn’t really have much of a chance at living a decent life in America.
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### Author:  [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/164 "2017-04-07T18:29:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> Really? because Asians have been struggling to “belong” in a broader sense for a long time and even without AA, they have been having trouble belonging.
>
> There are places where Affirmative action does not exist in any meaningful way. The magnet schools in NYC, Cal Tech, MIT, etc. I don’t think anyone thought it was harder for them to get in. The level of racism that might have justified that viewpoint does not really exist today.
>
> Despite AA, no one thinks that Obama was unqualified no one thinks that Condoleeza Rice was unqualified, noone thinks that Michele Obama was unqualified for her positions, noone thinks that Colin Powell was not qualified for his position. Peple disagree about Thomas but based on his body of work prior to SCOTUS he wasn’t unqualified.
Diversity absolutely helps in admission to MIT and CalTech. You still have to be admissible, but once you are, it helps.
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### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/165 "2017-04-07T18:37:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> I don’t think we need to get rid of AA. I support AA. I don’t think it should apply to African immigrants.
I don’t entirely agree. And I don’t know that there is evidence that it did in this case, either. Do you really think that she was at the lower tier bracket, where the extra points that AA might give you made the difference?
> [@](#):
>
> But I find your reasoning interesting: Because AA causes people to assume that blacks benefit from AA, we need to keep AA! Is that about right?
No, that’s not the reasoning at all. As long as people assume that blacks only succeed because of AA, that proves that there is more than enough racism around that AA is needed to overcome those assumptions.
> [@](#):
>
> :rolleyes:
:smack:
> [@](#):
>
> I don’t think its unreasonable to assume that any one particular black applicant got into a school without the benefit of AA. I think its unreasonable to assume that almost all the students that got into all 8 Ivies are African immigrants and they all did it without the benefit of AA.
By almost all, you mean 1/3?
You have a white guy getting in, and you have an asian getting in to all 8, along with this african immigrant.
It has been pointed out a few times that very few people bother to apply to all 8, so the numbers are quite skewed there too.
> [@](#):
>
> Do you think that AA plays a role in the admissions process for African immigrants? because so far no one is saying no but people seem perfectly happy to call me a racist for saying it does.
I think it does, to some extent. Applicants are given a bit of extra weight because they come from a disadvantaged minority, both because their overcoming of adversity indicates greater potential for future growth, and because not only historically, but contemporaneously, this demographic is given few opportunities to succeed, so a bit of an assist in that regard is in the interest of not only the student, but of the school and of society in general.
But, on an individual basis, AA does not actually increase you odds all that much, as there are plenty of exceptional individuals from minority demographics. To assume that an individual minority person succeeded only because of AA is a racial bias.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/166 "2017-04-07T18:42:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> If there’s evidence Asians and Jews experience major and significant difficulties in achieving success in the US due to unfair treatment, then I’d certainly be willing to consider AA for them. Do you have such evidence? The statistics I’ve seen show that Asians and Jews are among the most successful groups of Americans, which makes me skeptical.
> **[A closer look at Asian-American income](https://www.epi.org/blog/asian-american-income/)**
>
> In her blog post on the earnings differences among interracial couples, the New York Times' Catherine Rampell concludes: “So basically, what these numbers are reflecting is that Asians earn more money, period, which is generally true across the...
Similarly credentialed Asians make less than their white counterparts. If you compare Asian incomes to white incomes and taking local wage levels into account, Asians make significantly less.
Similarly credentialed Asians get into colleges at significantly lower rates than their white counterparts. I can dig up a cite for this if you have trouble believing this.
The standard you proposed seems to be that AA is needed to counter the effects of racism generally. Now you seem to be restricting the remedy to only those cases you prefer. Why not counter all the effects of racism? Why is it ok that Asians are kept out of good schools? Why is it OK that Asians are denied promotions? Why is it OK to ignore the effects of racism and discrimination on Asians just because they can achieve a middle class lifestyle with some regularity? I think poverty rates are still higher among Asians than whites.
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### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/167 "2017-04-07T18:43:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> No, that is not even close to the standard I am applying.
>
> So I’ll ask you again. Do you think that AA is considered in the admissions process for African immigrants? Or am I just a racist for acknowledging that AA exists and\*\* is applied to all blacks in America including African immigrants?\*\*
Underline mine.
This is the part that I most disagree with, and it is the part that indicates a racial bias.
It is not applied to all blacks, only the ones who check the box will even get credit.
It is also a faulty and biased assumption to assume that a person would not get in without the point boost from AA, if they did ask for it.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/168 "2017-04-07T18:47:17Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> [A closer look at Asian-American income | Economic Policy Institute](http://www.epi.org/blog/asian-american-income/)
>
> Similarly credentialed Asians make less than their white counterparts. If you compare Asian incomes to white incomes and taking local wage levels into account, Asians make significantly less.
>
> Similarly credentialed Asians get into colleges at significantly lower rates than their white counterparts. I can dig up a cite for this if you have trouble believing this.
I’m certainly open to including Asians in AA if the facts show that Asian people don’t have a decent chance to succeed in our society.
> [@](#):
>
> The standard you proposed seems to be that AA is needed to counter the effects of racism generally. Now you seem to be restricting the remedy to only those cases you prefer. Why not counter all the effects of racism? Why is it ok that Asians are kept out of good schools? Why is it OK that Asians are denied promotions? Why is it OK to ignore the effects of racism and discrimination on Asians just because they can achieve a middle class lifestyle with some regularity?
Any “standard” I advocated never changed. My support for AA has always been about rectifying, as much as possible, unequal treatment for groups that don’t get a fair shake in our society at a decent life. If Asians don’t have a decent chance at a decent life, then I’m open to including them as well.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/169 "2017-04-07T18:50:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> That’s always been the reason I support AA – some groups in America really don’t have a reasonable chance at success (for any but the most extraordinarily talented or lucky, anyway) without AA. If all groups had a reasonable chance at success, then I wouldn’t support AA any more.
So even if there as discrimination that kept every cop, doctor, lawyer, judge, congressman and board rom white and male, so long as everyone could achieve middle class, we could ignore the effects of discrimination as far as AA was concerned right?
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/170 "2017-04-07T18:52:13Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> So even if there as discrimination that kept every cop, doctor, lawyer, judge, congressman and board rom white and male, so long as everyone could achieve middle class, we could ignore the effects of discrimination as far as AA was concerned right?
If such a scenario existed, there’d obviously still be a problem, but I’m not sure if AA would be the right way to fix it.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/171 "2017-04-07T18:55:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> AA is a big thing that’s not all positive – I recognize that. But the situation is so damn unequal for certain groups that it’s needed, IMO, and the positives outweigh the benefits at this time. Hopefully one day it won’t be needed any more.
You seem to be focusing on equality of results rather than equality of opportunity. ISTM that if you cared about equality of opportunity, you would want to counter racism regardless of how well the victims are doing. If you value equality of results then you don’t even really care about the level of racism as long as there is disparity in results.
I agree the positives outweigh the benefits too. I am arguing that the benefits should be targeted at the descendants not just anyone who passes a melanin test. When so much of the benefit of AA ignores the 90% of blacks in this country that are descendants and inures to the benefit of African immigrants to whom we owe no historical debt for slavery and segregation, then I don’t think the benefit is going where it ought to.
If these African immigrants are all getting into all 8 ivies without the benefit of AA as some people have implied, then why so much resistance to excluding them from the beneficiary pool?
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/172 "2017-04-07T18:59:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> You implied this girl didn’t earn her achievements based on her merits – and there’s no way you could possibly know whether she did. You should own that.
No I didn’t, when you say I implied something, what you are really doing is putting words in my mouth to make me out as a racist to shut me up.
So in case there is any fucking confusion going forward, let me stated unequivocally that I believe and have ALWAYS believed that it is entirely possible that any one of the individuals that got into all 8 ivies could have done it under the their own steam. I further believe that it is HIGHLY unlikely that so many of kids who achieve this feat would be African immigrants but for AA.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/173 "2017-04-07T19:00:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> You did seem to assume something about the African student you highlighted.
No, you may just see it that way because its a lot easier to argue against someone you can paint as racist.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/174 "2017-04-07T19:01:35Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> You seem to be focusing on equality of results rather than equality of opportunity. ISTM that if you cared about equality of opportunity, you would want to counter racism regardless of how well the victims are doing. If you value equality of results then you don’t even really care about the level of racism as long as there is disparity in results.
>
> I agree the positives outweigh the benefits too. I am arguing that the benefits should be targeted at the descendants not just anyone who passes a melanin test. When so much of the benefit of AA ignores the 90% of blacks in this country that are descendants and inures to the benefit of African immigrants to whom we owe no historical debt for slavery and segregation, then I don’t think the benefit is going where it ought to.
>
> If these African immigrants are all getting into all 8 ivies without the benefit of AA as some people have implied, then why so much resistance to excluding them from the beneficiary pool?
I’m focused on equality of opportunity, not results. I think the evidence shows that several groups really don’t have equal opportunity in achieving a decent life in the US.
I think your idea about using bloodlines is incredibly dumb. America doesn’t treat people differently based on their DNA or ancestry – it’s based on their race (and other groupings), which are sociological, not biological, characteristics. I’m probably the descendant of some slaves (according to my DNA ancestry tests, anyway), but I’ve been treated as white all my life, with all the accompanying benefits. Plenty of dark-skinned people in America with no slave ancestry have been treated as black all their lives, with all the accompanying shitty treatment and lesser opportunity.
I’m unconvinced that the fact that some African immigrants benefit from AA harms non-immigrant black Americans.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/175 "2017-04-07T19:03:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> No I didn’t, when you say I implied something, what you are really doing is putting words in my mouth to make me out as a racist to shut me up.
>
> So in case there is any fucking confusion going forward, let me stated unequivocally that I believe and have ALWAYS believed that it is entirely possible that any one of the individuals that got into all 8 ivies could have done it under the their own steam. I further believe that it is HIGHLY unlikely that so many of kids who achieve this feat would be African immigrants but for AA.
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> No, you may just see it that way because its a lot easier to argue against someone you can paint as racist.
Where did I call you racist?
Why did you bring up this girl if she has no relevance to this discussion? The only point to bring her up in relation to this discussion would be if you think she’s an example of someone getting unearned benefit. If there’s another reason, then what is it?
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/176 "2017-04-07T19:05:48Z")
**Damuri Ajashi** , if you’re going to take every criticism and challenge as an accusation of racism, then there’s not much point to any discussion with you. No one has called you racist in this thread.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/177 "2017-04-07T19:47:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> If Asians are substantially less likely to be well educated, to get good jobs, to have decent incomes, to be fairly treated by the justice system, etc., than most other Americans, then IMO AA ought to include them.
>
> AA isn’t for slight discrimination, IMO, or slight inequalities
Slight discrimination?
When was the last time we put people in interment camps?
Did we ever have a black people exclusion act?
Just because we don’t hear about it doesn’t mean the discrimination isn’t real and significant.
> [@](#):
>
> – it’s for major discrimination and unequal treatment that means a big, big portion of a group doesn’t really have much of a chance at living a decent life in America.
You really think that it is racism (aside from the legacy of slavery and segregation) rather than a toxic culture and disintegration of the black family that is causing this poverty and inability to achieve a middle class lifestyle?
Only 2% of Two parent black families live in poverty. Their incomes are very comparable to two parent white families after adjusting for locality and education.
~3% of the black population in America were immigrants. Now its closer to 10%. They are generally better educated, wealthier and have more stable families.
OK, then lets give the descendants AA. But African immigrants don’t face this hurdle you set for receiving AA. They don’t have the same trouble reaching the middle class, many of them start there. African immigrants don’t encounter the same police hostility that the descendants do. Many police consider them a model minority in many respects. Are there some poor African immigrants? Sure, but Asians are not universally rich either. Asians have a higher poverty rate than whites generally despite having better education and lower incidence of crime and out of wedlock birth. but like you said, this can be attributed to 'slight discrimination" but is the racism against African immigrants really as crippling as what we have seen among the descendants?
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/178 "2017-04-07T19:58:48Z")
> [@MandaJo](#):
>
> Diversity absolutely helps in admission to MIT and CalTech. You still have to be admissible, but once you are, it helps.
The affirmative action at MIT is different than at other top schools:
“MIT also has an active commitment to affirmative action. We do have affirmative action at MIT which means that we will admit every qualified African American, Mexican American, Puerto Rican and Native American student in our pool, Jones said. She also noted, though, that, **The mean SAT scores of our minority undergraduate students are higher than the mean SATs for all of the students enrolled in the Ivy League**. In short, these students are the best in the U.S.”
Cal Tech may use race as a tie breaker but the admissions process is fairly race blind. I don’t think they have an affirmative action policy. If they do they are really bad at implementing it.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/179 "2017-04-07T20:03:22Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> I don’t entirely agree. And I don’t know that there is evidence that it did in this case, either. Do you really think that she was at the lower tier bracket, where the extra points that AA might give you made the difference?
>
> No, that’s not the reasoning at all. As long as people assume that blacks only succeed because of AA, that proves that there is more than enough racism around that AA is needed to overcome those assumptions.
> :smack:
>
> By almost all, you mean 1/3?
>
> You have a white guy getting in, and you have an asian getting in to all 8, along with this african immigrant.
>
> It has been pointed out a few times that very few people bother to apply to all 8, so the numbers are quite skewed there too.
>
> I think it does, to some extent. Applicants are given a bit of extra weight because they come from a disadvantaged minority, both because their overcoming of adversity indicates greater potential for future growth, and because not only historically, but contemporaneously, this demographic is given few opportunities to succeed, so a bit of an assist in that regard is in the interest of not only the student, but of the school and of society in general.
>
> But, on an individual basis, AA does not actually increase you odds all that much, as there are plenty of exceptional individuals from minority demographics. To assume that an individual minority person succeeded only because of AA is a racial bias.
Successful black applicants at top colleges have SAT scores that are 200 points lower than their white counterparts. That looks like a pretty significant advantage. And once again I do not begrudge the descendants this advantage because I feel like they (as a group) would be at about the same place as African immigrants if their ancestors came over as African immigrants rather than as slaves. But the generally background racism and discrimination that is encountered by African immigrants doesn’t seem like the same thing as what descendants experience.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2017, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-affirmative-action-focused-on-the-wrong-things/783792/180 "2017-04-07T20:04:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> Slight discrimination?
>
> When was the last time we put people in interment camps?
>
> Did we ever have a black people exclusion act?
>
> Just because we don’t hear about it doesn’t mean the discrimination isn’t real and significant.
You’re still talking about the past, while I’m talking about the present. And there may well be real significant and major discrimination against Asian people in America in the present. No one in this thread has said that Asians should definitely not be included in AA.
> [@](#):
>
> You really think that it is racism (aside from the legacy of slavery and segregation) rather than a toxic culture and disintegration of the black family that is causing this poverty and inability to achieve a middle class lifestyle?
>
> Only 2% of Two parent black families live in poverty. Their incomes are very comparable to two parent white families after adjusting for locality and education.
>
> ~3% of the black population in America were immigrants. Now its closer to 10%. They are generally better educated, wealthier and have more stable families.
>
> OK, then lets give the descendants AA. But African immigrants don’t face this hurdle you set for receiving AA. They don’t have the same trouble reaching the middle class, many of them start there. African immigrants don’t encounter the same police hostility that the descendants do. Many police consider them a model minority in many respects. Are there some poor African immigrants? Sure, but Asians are not universally rich either. Asians have a higher poverty rate than whites generally despite having better education and lower incidence of crime and out of wedlock birth. but like you said, this can be attributed to 'slight discrimination" but is the racism against African immigrants really as crippling as what we have seen among the descendants?
More assertions (especially about police) without cites.
Yes, I think most inequality of opportunity and of outcome in the US is due to discrimination and unequal treatment. I think any element of “toxic culture” (which you just threw out there without an explanation) or breakdown of the family is a symptom, rather than a cause, of unequal treatment and discrimination for black people in America.
The data I’ve seen, and more importantly what black people have personally told me, overwhelmingly tells me that there are dozens/hundreds/thousands/millions of obstacles, both small and large, that most African Americans face, every single day/month/year, that other groups don’t face.
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