Asian girl accepted to 8 Ivy Leagues
I wonder if Damuri will use this fact to conclude that Asians are AA beneficaries, since that’s the standard he’s applying to Africans.
The thing is, this girl probably DID benefit from the fact that she represents a diversity of experience: she’s a Malaysian immigrant who came here at 5. On top of that, she’s clearly brilliant and hard-working and all those things we expect of a Ivy-admissible student. But within the set of “admissible students”, they do look for a diversity of experience so that the college experience is better for everyone. I had kids with higher GPAs and SAT scores (and I promise higher scores on more AP exams) than this girl had–but the perspective they offered was less unusual and I imagine it literally came down to randomly picking five or six out of a hundred that were all equally qualified. Unique experiences, provided you are academically qualified, are a huge advantage.
What’s interesting is that when the diversity of experience they are looking for is “Olympic Athlete” or “homeschooled by parents who lived in refugee camp as part of Doctor’s Without Borders” or “grew up working on a cotton farm” that seems reasonable to people. But when the experience “was poor black kid in urban inner city” or “Nigerian immigrant”, then it’s “letting them in because of the color of their skin”.
Where do I say that every single non-AA student got in on merit?
From ten posts above the one you quote:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20119295&postcount=112
“If they can get in under some other criteria (great poet or wealthy enough to buy the school a library), then fine but they shouldn’t be getting in because of the color of their skin.”
I am saying that AA (as it is applied today) provides an unjustified advantage to African immigrants.
[quote]
You only have proof that African students outnumber non-African students in the Ivy League. Show me that would not have been able to gain admittance but for their blackness. I doubt you can do it, but you can at least try.[/qute]
I’ll ask again, do you honestly think that AA des not affect the admission of African immigrants? Or are you just trying to call me a racist for daring to imply that AA not only exists but is actually used in the admissions process?
I have acknowledged that racism exists. For all minorities. So why don’t Asians get some AA? because it really looks like Asians are getting the opposite of AA.
If you can show me that these neighborhoods are actuarially similar but the black neighborhoods are being charged 70% more then there is a great class action lawsuit waiting to happen. But if there are actuarial differences then the differences in premiums can be justified.
Sure. I don’t pretend that Asians suffer the exact same types and levels of discrimination that blacks to but as your cites show, they suffer discrimination as well. So where’s their AA?
If you insist that AA is supposed to do more than try to make up for the harms caused by slavery and segregation and you want to expand the benefit to African immigrants to anyone with African ancestry because racism exists in our society then, then ALL minorities who suffer from discrimination should get some form of AA and yet we do not.
At what point have any of AA defenders said that Asian people shouldn’t be included in AA for areas in which they have unequal opportunity? I’m pretty sure we’d all be open to this.
I totally agree with everything but the notion that we need to extend AA benefits to the African immigrant pool to achieve this.
I think almost everyone would agree that the real goal should be to fix the k-12 system in black neighborhoods so that AA becomes necessary. The goal should be to address the disproportionate poverty among black children (we all know that children represent a large portion of these living in poverty, black children are grossly over-represented in this figure) so that these kids grow up in at least minimally conducive environment for childhood development.
But I realize that at some point you are pushing a rope so some AA will probably be necessary for a while longer but ISTM that we could achieve the desired critical mass of black professionals with the descendant of African slaves.
I agree that a greater critical mass of black professional makes a huge difference. More black teachers, more black doctors, more black lawyers, more black cops, more black judges, more back business owners, more black coaches, etc. But ISTM that using AA to achieve this is a form of mission creep. And even if we are OK with this mission creep (I don’t think this mission creep offends me), then I think we can limit the benefit to the descendants.
Do you think that Affirmative action plays a role in the admissions process for Africa immigrants? With the caveat that many of these applicants (along with applicants that are descendants) would get in under their own steam without AA.
I think it selects for luck more than anything.
Racism exists for non-white minorities and a few white ones as well. Why not have AA for Asians and Jews? I can provide a cite for racism and discrimination against Asians and Jews if you like.
Then what of the racism against Asians and Jews? Or is racism against them harder to see?
If there’s evidence Asians and Jews experience major and significant difficulties in achieving success in the US due to unfair treatment, then I’d certainly be willing to consider AA for them. Do you have such evidence? The statistics I’ve seen show that Asians and Jews are among the most successful groups of Americans, which makes me skeptical.
I rather thing that it’s not that the refugee experience “selects” certain traits as it is that it creates them: the volcano doesn’t “select” special carbon, but it provides a unique opportunity to create diamonds.
Oh, I thought we were talking about the effects on self esteem and self worth that are affected standards of beauty generally and not just hairstyles. because as an Asian male, there are some pretty confidence crushing stereotypes about Asian males that even black males don’t suffer from.
Wait. Is AA supposed to make up for discrimination or only discrimination that you think is worthy of AA? Think of how much Asians and Jews could achieve if they didn’t have to contend with the effects of racism and discrimination. Think of what they could achieve if they had the benefits of AA!
I am curious where this “reasonable chance at success” test comes from. Can we apply this test to Appalachian whites and people who majored in liberal arts?
It seems like you are making up a standard that would justify AA as it exists today but has not really been the justification for AA anywhere but here AFAICT.
That’s always been the reason I support AA – some groups in America really don’t have a reasonable chance at success (for any but the most extraordinarily talented or lucky, anyway) without AA. If all groups had a reasonable chance at success, then I wouldn’t support AA any more.
I’m sure this is a reasonable topic to discuss. If there’s evidence that Asians don’t have a reasonable chance at success in the US, then I’d be open to it.
Again, if there’s evidence that Asians and Jews don’t have a reasonable chance at success in the US, then I’d be open to it.
I’d certainly be open to it.
AA is a big thing that’s not all positive – I recognize that. But the situation is so damn unequal for certain groups that it’s needed, IMO, and the positives outweigh the benefits at this time. Hopefully one day it won’t be needed any more.
Wrong. I treated you to the assumption that practically all the kids who get accepted to ALL the ivies wouldn’t be African immigrants but for AA.
Are you saying that AA does not play a role in the admission of African immigrants into the ivies? If so, please go ahead and say so because ISTM that you want tit both ways. You want AA to play a role in college admissions but you don’t want anyone to mention that AA plays a role in college admissions.
My point is not to argue against AA or to imply that there are ZERO black kids that can get into all 8 ivies. My point is that the disproportionate number of African immigrants that get into all 8 ivies is evidence that AA is being applied to African immigrants and I think AA should be limited to the descendants.
So because people will make “demeaning” assumptions about her achievements because of the existence of AA, we need to keep AA? That’s a pretty bass ackwards argument.
Yes, I am very interested in the controversy around AA. It is useful to discuss it on this forum because as a supporter of AA, I am exposed to some of the more ridiculous arguments that the opponents of AA use as straw men when debating the topic outside this forum.
BTW, can you please show me the post where I personalize this to White-Thorpe rather than using her case to make the argument against AA for African immigrants generally?
ISTM that you are looking for racism in anyone that disagrees with you.
So I will ask you once again because no one seems to want to answer the question:
Do you think AA plays a role in the admissions process for African immigrants? If so then how the fuck am I being racist for pointing out that AA plays a role in the admission process for African immigrants?
I don’t think we need to get rid of AA. I support AA. I don’t think it should apply to African immigrants.
But I find your reasoning interesting: Because AA causes people to assume that blacks benefit from AA, we need to keep AA! Is that about right?
:rolleyes:
I don’t think its unreasonable to assume that any one particular black applicant got into a school without the benefit of AA. I think its unreasonable to assume that almost all the students that got into all 8 Ivies are African immigrants and they all did it without the benefit of AA.
Do you think that AA plays a role in the admissions process for African immigrants? because so far no one is saying no but people seem perfectly happy to call me a racist for saying it does.
You implied this girl didn’t earn her achievements based on her merits – and there’s no way you could possibly know whether she did. You should own that.
So we can’t talk about anything else as long as Trump is in the white house?
I think I have been pretty clear over the years that I believe that white privilege exists. I think I have been pretty clear that I think AA needs to continue for the time being. I think I have been pretty clear in my opinion that Trump does not belong in the white house.
But the moment I mention my disagreement with how AA is being applied (not the mere existence of AA but how it is being applied), I am a Trump supporting quisling to the white patriarchy. :rolleyes:
Really? because Asians have been struggling to “belong” in a broader sense for a long time and even without AA, they have been having trouble belonging.
There are places where Affirmative action does not exist in any meaningful way. The magnet schools in NYC, Cal Tech, MIT, etc. I don’t think anyone thought it was harder for them to get in. The level of racism that might have justified that viewpoint does not really exist today.
Despite AA, no one thinks that Obama was unqualified no one thinks that Condoleeza Rice was unqualified, noone thinks that Michele Obama was unqualified for her positions, noone thinks that Colin Powell was not qualified for his position. Peple disagree about Thomas but based on his body of work prior to SCOTUS he wasn’t unqualified.
Where am I assuming anything about black people?
If you find yourself reaching for the race card every time you discuss AA, you might not have a very good argument for AA.
No, that is not even close to the standard I am applying.
So I’ll ask you again. Do you think that AA is considered in the admissions process for African immigrants? Or am I just a racist for acknowledging that AA exists and is applied to all blacks in America including African immigrants?