# Is Afghanistan "Worth It"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2010, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700 "2010-07-06T11:05:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/201 "2010-07-10T17:00:34Z")
Do you have a dictionary? Perhaps you write your own? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/202 "2010-07-10T18:04:34Z")
Sorry, Paul, but you are wrong. [The dictionary](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/murder)gives several meanings for the word _murder_. Not all of the definitions require illegality. One definition is \*5. to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously. \* This is clearly the sense in which DT was using the word, and it is perfectly cromulent usage. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/203 "2010-07-10T18:21:31Z")
The last people who should be defining what “murder” is are people whose job it is to kill “enemies”. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/204 "2010-07-10T20:54:08Z")
[http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544\_162-20010184-503544.html](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20010184-503544.html) Just another decade …or maybe 2. Your kids in grade school still have an opportunity to fight in Afghanistan. Lots of money. Lots of soldiers dying. Lots of Afghanies wanting to make us go away. What a mess. Six soldiers were killed today. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/205 "2010-07-11T01:27:45Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > The last people who should be defining what “murder” is are people whose job it is to kill “enemies”. Good point. Those who fly airplanes ought not be allowed to make proclamations about aviation. Only the uneducated can be trusted. Besides, while I appreciate a good old-fashioned ad hominem, I am a school teacher. As for Murder; Etymology \*\*From Middle English murder, murdre, mourdre “murder”, alteration of earlier murthre “murder” (See murther) from Old English morþor “secret slaying, unlawful killing” \*\*and Old English myrþra “murder, homicide”, both from Proto-Germanic \*múrþran, \*múrþrian- (“death, killing, murder”) from Proto-Indo-European \*mrtro- (“killing”) from Proto-Indo-European base \*mer-, \*mor-, \*mr- (“to die”). Akin to Gothic (maurþr) “murder”, Old High German mord “murder”, Old Norse morð “murder”, Old English myrþrian “to murder”. The -d- in the Middle English form may have been influenced in part by Anglo-Norman murdre from Medieval Latin murdrum from Old French murdre from Frankish \*murþra “murder”, from the same Germanic root, though this may also have wholly been the result of internal development (compare burden from burthen). [edit]Pronunciation (RP) IPA: /ˈmɜːdə/, SAMPA: /"m3:d@/ (US) IPA: /ˈmɝdɚ/, SAMPA: /"m3`d@`/ Audio (US) (file) Rhymes: -ɜː(r)də(r) [edit]Noun murder (plural murders) (countable) An act of deliberate killing of another human being. There have been ten unsolved murders this year alone. \*\*(uncountable) (law) The crime of deliberate killing. \*\*The defendant was charged with murder. (uncountable) (When used as a predicative noun): Something terrible to endure. This headache is murder. (countable) The collective noun for crows  [quotations ▼] ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/206 "2010-07-11T02:25:34Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Besides, while I appreciate a good old-fashioned ad hominem, I am a school teacher. > > As for Murder… I stand corrected. You are a teacher and therefore incapable of error. In all my years of schooling I’ve never seen a teacher wrong about anything, so you must be right. And millions of people use the word “murder” differently than you do. For instance, a hippie might say “meat is murder.” But all of them are wrong. Every word has an exact, fixed meaning that never changes. Murder means illegal killing, and shall do so for all time. People who use the word differently from the right definition are all fools, and the dictioaryies that record such usage are not worth the paper they’re written on. You,being a teacher, know better than all of them. You’ve certainly opened my eyes there. Well done. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/207 "2010-07-11T13:11:39Z")
If our words do not have an exact meaning, then our posts cannot have an exact meaning. I can read your words to mean one thing when in fact you mean something else. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/208 "2010-07-11T13:19:40Z")
I think that’s called “interpretation”. I’m fairly sure it’s not a new phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/209 "2010-07-11T13:23:43Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > If our words do not have an exact meaning, then our posts cannot have an exact meaning. I can read your words to mean one thing when in fact you mean something else. Well, you do that anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/210 "2010-07-11T13:27:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Afghanistan was conquered by us as a stepping stone to Iraq, not because they were responsible for anything. No, I read the exact meaning of your words. But if you cannot back them up with a cite, I have to discount them. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/211 "2010-07-11T13:32:10Z")
Paul, since you seem to have missed the irony in my previous post, let me just say it straight. Words do not have a fixed meaning. The meaning shifts over time. They acquire secondary meanings. What a word meant several hundred years ago, and what it means today are often totally different. And in modern usage the word murder is frequently used to refer to a killing that offends the speaker’s own sense of ethics. Whether you like it or not, that is now correct usage. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/212 "2010-07-11T13:38:33Z")
`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.’ Through the Looking Glass Lewis Carroll ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/213 "2010-07-11T13:50:44Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > No, I read the exact meaning of your words. But if you cannot back them up with a cite, I have to discount them. I already answered your question; my “cite” is the fact that we did nearly nothing with Afghanistan and immediately diverted our efforts to Iraq. What, do you want a cite that the sky is blue next? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/214 "2010-07-11T13:55:25Z")
cum hoc ergo propter hoc ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/215 "2010-07-11T13:55:44Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > No, I read the exact meaning of your words. But if you cannot back them up with a cite, I have to discount them. Actually, you quoted him wrongly. You said _“I seem to recall you claimed we went to war in Afghanistan in order to have some sort of base to later attack Iran. For that, I ask for a cite.”_ Iran is not Iraq. Please back up your claim that he said anything similar about Iran. Before he provides a cite, would you please show the post where he made that claim. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/216 "2010-07-11T14:14:07Z")
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/217 "2010-07-11T15:58:00Z")
The wealthy and the ruling class love America in Afghanistan. they can skim many millions of American tax dollars for their private use. Afghanistan has a corrupt government, the entire system is corrupt and the citizens are sick of it. Why should they want America to succeed when we have put Karzai in charge? Start by booting him and his cronies out. Then actually invest in helping the people. But that is not how it is done. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/218 "2010-07-11T16:03:27Z")
All of this true, but when you look at how gruesome-bad Korea was (in say 1959) you can see that we can still win. Further, when you look at North Korea (here played by the Taliban) you can see how awful losing would be for the people of Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/219 "2010-07-11T17:32:07Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > All of this true, but when you look at how gruesome-bad Korea was (in say 1959) you can see that we can still win. Different places, different people (on both sides), different eras. > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Further, when you look at North Korea (here played by the Taliban) you can see how awful losing would be for the people of Afghanistan. I see no reason to buy the idea that us “winning” is going to be any better for them. You may think that being tortured, raped, enslaved or murdered in the name of America is somehow better than the same thing happening in the name of Communism, Islam or whatever; I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/220 "2010-07-11T18:55:03Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > (countable) An act of deliberate killing of another human being. From your own definition. I don’t see why you don’t accept this meaning as well. I can see making a distinction between Jeffery Dahmer murder and a soldier pointing his gun to shoot and kill another human being with the sanction of the state. They both have their _reasons_; the soldier has an entire social context as part of his reasons which carries a lot more weight than your standard barking mad maniac’s reasons. My point is that state sanction doesn’t necessarily make it a good thing, or quite remove it from the sphere of ‘murder’. Anyhow, we have not declared war in Afghanistan. Not sure if that changes your view of war-time killing as ‘not legal’ or not. What exactly is the legal status of the conflict in Afghanistan anyway? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700.md?page=12)