# Is Afghanistan "Worth It"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2010, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700 "2010-07-06T11:05:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/241 "2010-07-13T01:49:12Z")
So we are not talking about Afghanistan anymore? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/242 "2010-07-13T01:52:35Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I’m still intrigued as to what you are supposed to do with thousands of mostly testosterone-fuelled men, when they are pulled out of these 2 current “war zones”? Where to deploy next, eh, Generals? Follow the money. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/243 "2010-07-13T02:06:13Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > We need to use force, certainly, but that is just a means of using other forms of power to change the way the Afghans think and live. That is quite a bit harder, but has many historical examples. Such as when the White Devils crushed the Native American culture. Hey, if we are going to do something like that in Afghanistan, we need to start sending settlers. I hope **Paul in Qatar** will be the first to volunteer. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/244 "2010-07-13T02:30:14Z")
Why would we need settlers? We did not settle Germany when we changed its culture. We did not settle Korea when we changed its culture. Seriously, do you have anything at all to add to the discussion? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/245 "2010-07-13T02:34:07Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > So we are not talking about Afghanistan anymore? Oh, right. Strategically, it’s a lost cause; there’s no there there any more. Personally, I’m offended that my government is helping another that has had Canadians kidnaped and tortured, and helping it on my dime, no less. I couldn’t care less about 9/11 or your revenge fantasies. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/246 "2010-07-13T02:38:50Z")
South Korea and Germany were ripe for change. The people actually _wanted_ the sort of change which was being promoted. They participated wholeheartedly. I don’t see very many Afghans stepping up to the plate. Do you have enough smarts to quit before you fall further behind? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/247 "2010-07-13T02:41:10Z")
When they told us Afghanistan was full of minerals, it should have told you all you need to know. We are not there for any other reason than money. They have lots of lithium deposits. The batteries in the electric and hybrid cars are a lithium combination. Phone batteries are lithium. The future batteries are using lithium. We go to war for corporations. We always have and always will. ---
**Author:** ![Zanthor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@Zanthor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zanthor)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/248 "2010-07-13T06:46:43Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > In regards to Afghanistan: Part of me wants to napalm every opium field in that country (and those around it). After the napalm, we salt the earth, so they can’t grow opium again. Then kill every single warlord - they are all evil - they are all liars. then kill everyone who objects. > > Obviously, this isn’t a reasonable solution. So, another part of me just wants to immediately pull our troops out (Iraq too). Fuck the rest of the world, we in the US have our own problems to deal with and are sick and tired of being the world’s police force. (No offense intended to any allies who also participate in the ‘police-forcing’ of the world) > > A third part of me wants to stay the course with the hope that there is somehow something to be gained, not just for the US and its allies, but for the reasonable people of Afghanistan. > > In short: I am conflicted. A better question, thread title, would be. Is America worth it..??? 4th part of you should have asked, why do we spend $US trillions killing other foreign ppl, reducing their countries to rubble, based on lies and self delusions that America could rule the world by the force of its weapons alone? discount ideology, religion, their basic hatred of us for our imposed exploitation and domination of them for centuries…? then say, when it becomes clear we are going to get whupped again, just like Vietnam, basically its all their fault ( that we had to kill them, slaughter them ) it was for their own good. and if we cannot get our own way, we will skulk away like spoil children. blame only them, become insular again… Basically, when will America grow up, act mature, stop being so self orientated, so greedy?, This is excellent. - mainly asks, is America in Afghanistan to hunt bin Laden down or have ‘fun’ shooting wife beaters??? ‘It’s Fun to Shoot Some People’ By Ed O’Keefe & Al Jazeera James Mattis, a lieutenant general, told a crowd in San Diego that it was “fun to shoot some people” and said that some Afghans deserved to die. [http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25916.htm](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25916.htm) President Obama’s pick to lead military operations in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan and the Middle East is an experienced ground combat commander, but also earned a stern rebuke in 2005 for controversial comments about combat operations. Marine Corps Gen. James Mattis, then a lieutenant general, told a crowd in San Diego that it was “fun to shoot some people” and said that some Afghans deserved to die. “You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years, because they didn’t wear a veil,” Mattis said. “You know guys like that ain’t got no manhood left anyway. So it’s a hell of a lot of fun to shoot 'em.” Watch Mattis’s comments in the video, linked above.) AND, Number Of Iraqis Slaughtered Since The U.S. Invaded Iraq “1,366,350” [www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/iraqdeaths.html](http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/iraqdeaths.html) Number of U.S. Military Personnel Sacrificed (Officially acknowledged) In America’s War On Iraq: 4,729 [icasualties.org/oif/](http://icasualties.org/oif/) Number Of International Occupation Force Troops Slaughtered In Afghanistan : 1,920 Cost of War in Iraq & Afghanistan $1,015,765,484,415 > **[Home](https://costofwar.com/)** > > No Content Available No Content Available Tactical Intel No Content Available No Content Available War Room Updates edit post Meet - The West has already lost in Afghanistan, should leave now with their tails between their legs before thousands more are killed… needlessly. stupidly. To ‘WIN’ (sic ) in Afghanistan America will have to invade Pakistan too, because that is where the Taliban came / come from, a never ending source of ppl who hate America for its interference, its meddling, bombing, invasion/s… and to complete its Domination of the Middle East, then Iran, then Syria, etc etc. Then Russia and China. Practically start WW3, and Armageddon… Is this what America wants??? Sure looks like it… Saving Face in Unwinnable War By Eric Margolis Sinking in debt and no closer to victory, heads may roll as the U.S. and NATO wrap up their pointless Afghan adventure. [http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25917.htm](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25917.htm) We Who Advocate Peace By Camillo Mac Bica They wage preemptive war, occupy and bomb sovereign nations, utilize video-game technology and robotics to murder and then dehumanize hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children as collateral damage. We who advocate peace and justice say that such acts of war and occupation are illegal, immoral and a barbaric and paranoid response to contrived evil . [http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25918.htm](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25918.htm) we should not stuff up other countries politics? me thinks, we lose, end of game. we just have yet to admit it ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/249 "2010-07-13T13:11:14Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > South Korea and Germany were ripe for change. The people actually _wanted_ the sort of change which was being promoted. They participated wholeheartedly. I don’t see very many Afghans stepping up to the plate. > > Do you have enough smarts to quit before you fall further behind? Really, ripe for change? Can you back that up in any way at all? Is that why the Germans fought so hard, in order to change their society? Korea, ripe for change, is that why it took rioting in the streets to dispose Rhee? Question for you, do you think the situation we face now is as bad as the situation we faced in 1944 or 1952? Do you really think Nazis were pansies compared to the Taliban? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/250 "2010-07-13T14:39:24Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Really, ripe for change? Can you back that up in any way at all? > > Is that why the Germans fought so hard, in order to change their society? Korea, ripe for change, is that why it took rioting in the streets to dispose Rhee? > > Question for you, do you think the situation we face now is as bad as the situation we faced in 1944 or 1952? Do you really think Nazis were pansies compared to the Taliban? It seems rather obvious that if Koreans were rioting in the streets to get rid of Rhee, they were actively pursuing change. I’ve never heard of Afghans doing anything of the sort. Germans were supremely nationalistic before and during WW2. After WW2 they were the opposite. They were ready to embrace what was offered to them. If you will forgive a stereotype, Germans are excellent followers. From [http://www.amiexpat.com/2009/01/09/germany-after-wwii-a-personal-perspective/](http://www.amiexpat.com/2009/01/09/germany-after-wwii-a-personal-perspective/) “Before the World Cup in 2006, you never saw German flags flying. Since the World Cup, Germans are finally starting to feel some pride in their nation again. It’s not strange to see a German flag flying from a house, or a car window, anymore.” I don’t think Afghans are nationalistic, but they are extremely ethnocentric. My answers to your last 2 questions are “not even close” and “no, btw what’s the relevance of this question?” ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/251 "2010-07-13T15:02:33Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Really, ripe for change? Can you back that up in any way at all? > > Is that why the Germans fought so hard, in order to change their society? Korea, ripe for change, is that why it took rioting in the streets to dispose Rhee? > > Question for you, do you think the situation we face now is as bad as the situation we faced in 1944 or 1952? Do you really think Nazis were pansies compared to the Taliban? People fight very hard to expel foreign invaders. Someday we will learn that. They know the terrain and will fight to the death. The Afghani soldiers have been fighting invaders for a very long time. They are getting pretty good at it. Our soldiers don’t even know why they are there. They are well equipped and follow orders, but that does not equal fighting for your homeland. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/252 "2010-07-13T15:15:36Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Duality;12678836My answers to your last 2 questions are “not even close” and “no, btw what’s the relevance of this question?”[/QUOTE] If we accept that the Nazis were a tougher nut than the Taliban, why do you think we ought not to beat the Taliban, a much easier job than taking out Hitler? Certainly the number of people held under the evil system are less, but so are the sacrifices needed to liberate them. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/253 "2010-07-13T15:17:34Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > **People fight very hard to expel foreign invaders**. Someday we will learn that. They know the terrain and will fight to the death. The Afghani soldiers have been fighting invaders for a very long time. They are getting pretty good at it. Our soldiers don’t even know why they are there. They are well equipped and follow orders, but that does not equal fighting for your homeland. (bolding mine) What about all the foreign Arabs, Chechens, and Uzbeks who go to Afghanistan to fight the US/Afghans? Will they ever learn? Why are we the only foreigners fighting in Afghanistan? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/254 "2010-07-13T15:35:13Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > (bolding mine) > > What about all the foreign Arabs, Chechens, and Uzbeks who go to Afghanistan to fight the US/Afghans? Will they ever learn? Why are we the only foreigners fighting in Afghanistan? What about them? We are seen by many as waging a war against Islam. By Bush’s enemy list and his subsequent wars ,it is not hard to present the case to middle easterners. What did the Afghan people do to us? We are thousands of miles from home, blowing up homes and infrastructure and killing citizens. That can not be defended . Think about what it would feel like to be on the other side. If a country thousands of miles away ,started bombing America to root out the people they see as threats to their country? What if they sent troops around the American countryside attacking people who they "say’ are enemies of their state? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/255 "2010-07-13T15:42:48Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > If we accept that the Nazis were a tougher nut than the Taliban, why do you think we ought not to beat the Taliban, a much easier job than taking out Hitler? Certainly the number of people held under the evil system are less, but so are the sacrifices needed to liberate them. Beating armies is easy. Intervening on one side or another of an ethnic civil war with one side led by religious fanatics and the other by corrupt, oppressive, raping, drug-dealing warlords (half of whom will switch sides if the others look like winning), not so much. Maybe it could have been done - at the beginning if we went in mob-handed. Now - they all know we’ll leave sooner rather than later. So the Taliban don’t have to win - they just need to not lose for a couple of years and like the first time they took power - just stroll back in to be welcomed as liberators (which they were as the Warlords of the Northern Alliance were and remain monsters.) ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/256 "2010-07-13T16:46:03Z")
Or of course we could decide not to leave. There is no obvious reason why we would want to. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/257 "2010-07-13T17:32:07Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Or of course we could decide not to leave. There is no obvious reason why we would want to. [http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070710\_1\_A4\_Month52386](http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070710_1_A4_Month52386) Really. You can think of no reason? How about all the dead and wounded soldiers? Does that resonate? How about the enemies we make every day over there? The cost is 2 billion a month and growing. What does that do for the debt? How about the idea that eventually ,we will walk away? We will ,you know? How about the waste and destruction of resources? I can think of no reason we should be there. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/258 "2010-07-13T17:42:29Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Or of course we could decide not to leave. There is no obvious reason why we would want to. Because we do nothing but harm by being there, to them or to ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/259 "2010-07-14T01:26:01Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070710\_1\_A4\_Month52386](http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070710_1_A4_Month52386) Really. You can think of no reason? How about all the dead and wounded soldiers? Does that resonate? Fighting, and dying, to protect the weak is what we do. It is our job. > [@gonzomax](#): > > How about the enemies we make every day over there? How about our friends over there? The ones you want to give up to the Taliban? > [@gonzomax](#): > > The cost is 2 billion a month and growing. What does that do for the debt? How about the idea that eventually ,we will walk away? We will ,you know? How about the waste and destruction of resources? > I can think of no reason we should be there. Some people find it impossible to turn their back on those who are being oppressed. Others, like you, do not give a damn about other people. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/260 "2010-07-14T01:27:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because we do nothing but harm by being there, to them or to ourselves. Hey! Welcome back! Any luck on a cite about the secret reason for the invasion of Afghanistan yet? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700.md?page=14)