# Is Afghanistan "Worth It"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2010, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700 "2010-07-06T11:05:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/21 "2010-07-06T15:08:35Z")
[http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/10/jihad-terror-cell-found-in-hamburg-where-911-was-plotted.html](http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/10/jihad-terror-cell-found-in-hamburg-where-911-was-plotted.html) 911 was planned in Hamburg ,Germany, Miami, Florida and a couple other places not including Afghanistan. Our generals say there are less than 100 Al Qeada in Afghanistan. How many soldiers do we need? It is a phony war and should be stopped. Define a victory there. We can not put soldiers in every city. We can not modernize the whole country. We can not make them into allies after bombing the shit out of them and killing thousands of their citizens. Would you feel warm and fuzzy over a country that sent soldiers from thousands of miles away and destroyed infrastructure and killed your citizens? This can not end well. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/22 "2010-07-06T15:18:56Z")
We need enough to win. Seems obvious. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/23 "2010-07-06T15:49:29Z")
Is it obvious what winning would consist of, though? Something more sophisticated than “defeating the terr’ists”? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/24 "2010-07-06T15:55:54Z")
I supported the invasion to get the Taliban and the terrorists. They’re gone now. There are over 1000 troops in Afghanistan for every al Qaeda member. I just don’t see what victory would look like and whatever that is, how it could be achieved. I say pull out, give the country back to the Taliban and lob the occasional missile when training camps are built. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/25 "2010-07-06T17:28:27Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Yes. The Afghans have been a boil on the butt of civilization for centuries. They have grown risk robbing and selling drugs to others. They are a public menace on a global scale. > > Do you remember the Taliban throwing acid in the face of women? Blowing up Buddhas? Allowing terrorist groups to make their plans? Do you want to return Afghani women to their fate? I do not. > > Is it hard? Sure, but the job will only be harder in the future. We owe it to our children to solve this problem now. You’re assuming that our guys are nicer than the Taliban : U.S. and British troops have launched a campaign to seize control of Helmand province, about half of which was in Taliban hands, and restore Afghan government institutions. But as they advance, they are learning uncomfortable facts about their local allies: villagers say the government’s police force was so brutal and corrupt that they welcomed the Taliban as liberators. “The police would stop people driving on motorcycles, beat them and take their money,” said Mohammad Gul, an elder in the village of Pankela, which British troops have been securing for the past three days after flying in by helicopter. He pointed to two compounds of neighbors where pre-teen children had been abducted by police to be used for the local practice of “bachabazi,” or sex with pre-pubescent boys. “If the boys were out in the fields, the police would come and rape them,” he said. “You can go to any police base and you will see these boys. They hold them until they are finished with them and then let the child go.” [http://www.afghanistannewscenter.com/news/2009/july/jul122009.html#1](http://www.afghanistannewscenter.com/news/2009/july/jul122009.html#1) various Afghan womens’ groups have said that life was actually worse when the Northern Alliance (our warlords) were running the show before the Taliban took over. The Taliban actually stopped all heroin production when they were in power. Whoever is in charge things aren’t going to change all that much for Afghan people. And things are just as bad in regions that border Afghanistan, for instance the part of Pakistan where bin Laden is currently living. And as a general point, if AQ (or the groups who succeed it and become the next must-defeat sworn enemies of the US war industry/lobby) are thrown out of Afghanistan then they’ll just go to Pakistan (like now, there are only 100 or so in Afghanistan.) And if by some miracle they were thrown out of Pakistan (which is becoming increasingly destabilised due to our presence, a suicide bombing a week now) they’ll just go to some other failed state like Somalia or Chad or Yemen. And if we spend trillions, decades and tens of thousands of dead and seriously wounded getting them out of those countries then they’ll just go back to Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/26 "2010-07-06T17:54:36Z")
The USA is going to defeat Taleban just as thoroughly as it did the Vietcong. Better resources, superior fire power and technology - can’t go wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/27 "2010-07-06T20:42:02Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > There is no question that Iraq has been a disastrous war, mainly for Iraqi civilians, but also for the US and its standing abroad. It’s a bit too early to say whether the US’s extremely revised war aims of building a semi-stable Iraqi state are a “failure” though, even in the somewhat chaotic Iraqi political situation. Consider that that’s not what we wanted to begin with, yes it would be a failure. That’s “declare victory and go home” face saving, not a victory. Especially considering all the other bad effects of the war. It’s still a lot better now than it was even back in 2005 when a full-blown civil war seemed imminent that threatened to draw in the surrounding Middle East into open proxy warfare with Iran and its sponsored Shiite militias. All that remains to be seen is whether things will revert back to the brink after the US withdrawal in 2011. > [@Camus](#): > > There was no native Iraqi government until the Coalition Provisional Authority handed sovereignty back over to the Iraqis in 2004. Also, while the insurgency was beginning to build up, it did not have the capabilities and size in 2004 that it did in 2005 or 2006. So, if the US intended on “looting” Iraq’s oil resources, why didn’t they just do it in late 2003 or 2004 when there was no sovereign government or full-blown insurgency to challenge or hinder it? The fact that the infrastructure was already wrecked, that it doesn’t take much of a resistance movement to destroy easy targets like oil pipelines, the fact that we were determined for ideological reasons to not rebuild the place using the government, and corruption. And because we fully expected to have decades to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/28 "2010-07-06T21:07:02Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I ask because combat deaths (US and coalition) have passed 1900. We have spent 100’s of $ billions, and 9 years trying to : > > - end the rule of the Taliban > - bring some education to the Afghan people > -“stabilize” Afghanistan > What I am asking..is this worth the loss of lives and treasure? > I am not sure-I think that Afghanistan will never become a peaceful democracy-the place is just too mired in ignorance. I think we will eventually leave, and all of this will have been a waste. > What do you think? I agree that U.S. forces will leave the country with the “war” still inconclusive (though there will likely be an effort to paint whatever the current situation is as a victory-like condition), and the blood and treasure spent will have been largely wasted. I also believe that this was the only ending that was ever really possible for the American military adventure there. However, I _don’t_ believe that “Afghanistan will never become a peaceful democracy,” necessarily. I can imagine ways that could happen–but not by military force. Efforts like [CAI](https://www.ikat.org/) are more likely to bear fruit in the long term. ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/29 "2010-07-06T22:35:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Consider that that’s not what we wanted to begin with, yes it would be a failure. That’s “declare victory and go home” face saving, not a victory. Especially considering all the other bad effects of the war. The “declare victory and go home” situation is what would have happened if the US pulled out in 2005/2006 and let Iraq erupt into open and continuous civil war that would have either permanently split up the country or forced neighboring states to send forces in. Assuming (and it is a big assumption) that this still does not happen when US forces leave next year, the current situation is neither victory nor failure. It is the middle ground of diminished expectations and an as-yet unrealized worst case scenario. > [@](#): > > The fact that the infrastructure was already wrecked, that it doesn’t take much of a resistance movement to destroy easy targets like oil pipelines, the fact that we were determined for ideological reasons to not rebuild the place using the government, and corruption. And because we fully expected to have decades to do it. Really? Every single major oil well was wrecked? Insurgents, despite being a disparate collection of competing groups who couldn’t come together let alone decide whether coalition forces, Sunnis, Shiites, or oil-related targets took priority, managed to destroy all the major oil pipelines and off-shore wells/refineries? According to [this article from August 2004](http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20040830/iraq_update_040830?s_name=&no_ads=), attacks on oil infrastructure caused a temporary export stoppage in southern Iraq in June 2004 and another temporary one in southern Iraq in August 2004, with the one in June being before the CPA handed back sovereignty and the one in August after. Urban infrastructure such as power stations and water treatment plants were wrecked, but there is nothing to indicate that all oil production in the country stopped in 2003 and early 2004. So, the question remains, if the US was intent on seizing oil wells or oil exports and not giving them back, why didn’t it do so during that time when there was no sovereign Iraqi government and no concentrated insurgent attacks to stop it? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/30 "2010-07-07T00:12:36Z")
No one said their plan was a good one. Still, it’s hard to imagine any other motive for ignoring (ha ha) “WMD” sites and letting hospitals be looted and burned while being sure to immediately occupy Iraq’s Oil Ministry building. Also, there’s something called the Iraqi Petroleum Law, a U.S.-drafted law which would have opened up Iraq’s oilfields to looting by Western corporations. Also, a good number of the warmongers in Bush’s cabinet who pushed and pushed and pushed for war wrote a letter to Clinton in 1998, suggesting he invade Iraq to secure its resources for the US. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/31 "2010-07-07T00:16:59Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > The USA is going to defeat Taleban just as thoroughly as it did the Vietcong. Better resources, superior fire power and technology - can’t go wrong. I’m looking forward to Afghani restaurants and manicurists speaking Pashtun. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/32 "2010-07-07T00:38:09Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > The “declare victory and go home” situation is what would have happened if the US pulled out in 2005/2006 and let Iraq erupt into open and continuous civil war that would have either permanently split up the country or forced neighboring states to send forces in. Assuming (and it is a big assumption) that this still does not happen when US forces leave next year, the current situation is neither victory nor failure. It is the middle ground of diminished expectations and an as-yet unrealized worst case scenario. An unstable, divided nation full of people who hate us and will cheerfully support anything that can possibly hurt us, a damaged America, an increase in the power of Iran and Islamic theocracy due to the destruction of Iraqi secularism? Yeah, those “expectations” are pretty damned diminished compared to the war that was supposedly going to run a profit and turn Iraq into Little America, give us ownership of their oil, and serve as a base for the general conquest of the region. All you are doing is redefining victory on the fly so you can call this disaster a victory. > [@Camus](#): > > Really? Every single major oil well was wrecked? Insurgents, despite being a disparate collection of competing groups who couldn’t come together let alone decide whether coalition forces, Sunnis, Shiites, or oil-related targets took priority, managed to destroy all the major oil pipelines and off-shore wells/refineries? According to [this article from August 2004](http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20040830/iraq_update_040830?s_name=&no_ads=), attacks on oil infrastructure caused a temporary export stoppage in southern Iraq in June 2004 and another temporary one in southern Iraq in August 2004, with the one in June being before the CPA handed back sovereignty and the one in August after. Urban infrastructure such as power stations and water treatment plants were wrecked, but there is nothing to indicate that all oil production in the country stopped in 2003 and early 2004. So, the question remains, if the US was intent on seizing oil wells or oil exports and not giving them back, why didn’t it do so during that time when there was no sovereign Iraqi government and no concentrated insurgent attacks to stop it? You are of course conveniently ignoring my point that we expected to have decades to loot it. We didn’t expect that the government such as it is would have the nerve to say “no”, nor did we intend to leave. Bush and friends even talked beforehand about how the oil money was going to pay for the war; we were going to make them pay for their own slaughter and torture and degradation. Nor was the Administration and its cronies prepared to admit how badly their corporate cronyism and free market fundamentalism would cripple the attempt to do anything at all. > [@The\_Tooth](#): > > No one said their plan was a good one. > > Still, it’s hard to imagine any other motive for ignoring (ha ha) “WMD” sites and letting hospitals be looted and burned while being sure to immediately occupy Iraq’s Oil Ministry building. Also, there’s something called the Iraqi Petroleum Law, a U.S.-drafted law which would have opened up Iraq’s oilfields to looting by Western corporations. Also, a good number of the warmongers in Bush’s cabinet who pushed and pushed and pushed for war wrote a letter to Clinton in 1998, suggesting he invade Iraq to secure its resources for the US. There’s also the original name for the planned conquest; “Operation Iraqi Liberation”, aka OIL. And then there was Cheney’s response to the fake California energy crisis, which was to start planning how to steal Iraqi oil. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/33 "2010-07-07T01:17:30Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Wouldn’t it be cheaper just to kill everyone who sells weapons to the Taliban? They’re quite capable of making their own. Even if they are based on century-old British rifles and Soviet-era Kalashnikovs. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/34 "2010-07-07T01:23:45Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > The USA is going to defeat Taleban just as thoroughly as it did the Vietcong. Better resources, superior fire power and technology - can’t go wrong. Kindly look into your crystal ball and advise me as to the fifth race at Pimlico. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/35 "2010-07-07T01:24:23Z")
[Antiwar.com Blog - Antiwar blog](http://www.antiwar.com/blog/) Here is an interview with retired Col. Douglas McGregor in which he says we should not be in Afghanistan. He also explains the politics behind it. It is a waste of treasure and lives . No good can come from it. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/36 "2010-07-07T01:39:17Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > What I am asking..is this worth the loss of lives and treasure? > [@spark240](#): > > I agree that U.S. forces will leave the country with the “war” still inconclusive (though there will likely be an effort to paint whatever the current situation is as a victory-like condition), and the blood and treasure spent will have been largely wasted. > [@gonzomax](#): > > [Quoted from someone else] > It is a waste of treasure and lives . No good can come from it. At the risk of a hijack, what’s this bizarre anachronistic trend to referring to money as “treasure,” at least in military circles? It sounds like something out of a sixteenth century Admiralty report. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/37 "2010-07-07T01:51:34Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Also, a good number of the warmongers in Bush’s cabinet who pushed and pushed and pushed for war wrote a letter to Clinton in 1998, suggesting he invade Iraq to secure its resources for the US. If you’re referring to the PNAC, then no, they didn’t. What they said was: [ > [@](#): > > In your upcoming State of the Union Address, you have an opportunity to chart a clear and determined course for meeting this threat. We urge you to seize that opportunity, and to enunciate a new strategy that would secure the interests of the U.S. and our friends and allies around the world. That strategy should aim, above all, at the removal of Saddam Hussein’s regime from power. > > The policy of “containment” of Saddam Hussein has been steadily eroding over the past several months. As recent events have demonstrated, we can no longer depend on our partners in the Gulf War coalition to continue to uphold the sanctions or to punish Saddam when he blocks or evades UN inspections. Our ability to ensure that Saddam Hussein is not producing weapons of mass destruction, therefore, has substantially diminished. Even if full inspections were eventually to resume, which now seems highly unlikely, experience has shown that it is difficult if not impossible to monitor Iraq’s chemical and biological weapons production. The lengthy period during which the inspectors will have been unable to enter many Iraqi facilities has made it even less likely that they will be able to uncover all of Saddam’s secrets. As a result, in the not-too-distant future we will be unable to determine with any reasonable level of confidence whether Iraq does or does not possess such weapons. > > Such uncertainty will, by itself, have a seriously destabilizing effect on the entire Middle East. It hardly needs to be added that if Saddam does acquire the capability to deliver weapons of mass destruction, as he is almost certain to do if we continue along the present course, the safety of American troops in the region, of our friends and allies like Israel and the moderate Arab states, and a significant portion of the world’s supply of oil will all be put at hazard. As you have rightly declared, Mr. President, the security of the world in the first part of the 21st century will be determined largely by how we handle this threat. ]([Prediksi168: Link Situs Slot Gacor Hari Ini Online Gampang Menang Maxwin Jackpot Pola Scatter Hitam](http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm)) If you have a cite of any letter in which Clinton is advised to invade Iraq for its resources, please cite it. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/38 "2010-07-07T02:27:10Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > You’re assuming that our guys are nicer than the Taliban So your saying the Afghan government is not as nice as, say, Syngman Rhee? Now there was an enlightened fellow. We have been in Afghanistan less than a generation; you are expecting change too soon. It took 40 years to create a reasonable government in South Korea, but it was worth it. Nothing unexpected is happening in Afghanistan. This is what a nation-building effort looks like. Things are going swimmingly. War is simply a nasty, brutal business fraught with errors and horrors. They ought not to have started it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/39 "2010-07-07T03:16:45Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > If you’re referring to the PNAC, then no, they didn’t. > What they said was: > > [url=[Prediksi168: Link Situs Slot Gacor Hari Ini Online Gampang Menang Maxwin Jackpot Pola Scatter Hitam](http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm)] > > If you have a cite of any letter in which Clinton is advised to invade Iraq for its resources, please cite it. That letter in which they encourage Clinton to invade Iraq for the sake of US interests is the very thing I had in mind. Five years later, when the authors had got their way in Iraq, they showed not the slightest remorse or inclination to admit error or make reparations or withdraw; this shows their claim to have believed Iraq to be a threat to be lies. Therefore I ignored all that WMD boilerplate after the suggestion Clinton invade Iraq for the sake of US interests. I hope that’s okay with you. I won’t change my mind if it isn’t, but I hope it is. After sending a message to the Iraqi government by killing many Iraqis with bombs, the US immediately occupied the Iraqi Oil Ministry building while ignoring alleged WMD sites. Why would I pretend Iraq wasn’t invaded for its resources? Because the people who did it say so? No, they’re demagogues and proven liars. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/40 "2010-07-07T03:36:27Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > At the risk of a hijack, what’s this bizarre anachronistic trend to referring to money as “treasure,” at least in military circles? It sounds like something out of a sixteenth century Admiralty report. I have encountered it many times in the last few years. Not even unusual anymore. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700.md?page=3)