# Is Afghanistan "Worth It"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2010, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700 "2010-07-06T11:05:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/41 "2010-07-07T04:39:47Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > US troops in Saudi Arabia was only [one of three grievances](http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm) that Bin Laden publicly stated before 9/11, with the situation in pre-2003 Iraq (it is unclear if he is referring to the results of the Gulf War itself or the decade of UN sanctions afterwards) and support for Israel being the other two. > > It is deceptively simplistic to call Afghanistan an “oil war.” Well shit, even Babe Ruth would be happy to hit .333 :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/42 "2010-07-07T07:32:25Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Nothing unexpected is happening in Afghanistan. This is what a nation-building effort looks like. Things are going swimmingly. War is simply a nasty, brutal business fraught with errors and horrors. "Militarily, we succeeded in Vietnam. We won every engagement we were involved in out there. " William Westmoreland ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/43 "2010-07-07T08:22:12Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > So your saying the Afghan government is not as nice as, say, Syngman Rhee? Now there was an enlightened fellow. > > We have been in Afghanistan less than a generation; you are expecting change too soon. It took 40 years to create a reasonable government in South Korea, but it was worth it. > > Nothing unexpected is happening in Afghanistan. This is what a nation-building effort looks like. Things are going swimmingly. War is simply a nasty, brutal business fraught with errors and horrors. > > They ought not to have started it. I’m in this camp. And also, don’t forget that the US isn’t the only country fighting in Afghanistan. This is a UN-sanctioned mission. The majority of Afghans do, in fact, want us (the coalition) there. I have spoken to Afghans in Canada. They are appreciative of our efforts. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/44 "2010-07-07T09:28:17Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > That letter in which they encourage Clinton to invade Iraq for the sake of US interests is the very thing I had in mind. Your claim was that they “wrote a letter to Clinton suggesting he invade Iraq to secure its resources for the US.” But that wasn’t what the letter said. It also didn’t say to invade for the sake of specifically US interests. Hell, regime change includes assassination in any case, so invasion wasn’t even a necessary part of the equation. > [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Five years later, when the authors had got their way in Iraq, they showed not the slightest remorse or inclination to admit error or make reparations or withdraw; this shows their claim to have believed Iraq to be a threat to be lies. No, it doesn’t. > [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Why would I pretend Iraq wasn’t invaded for its resources? Because as pointed out, even when we could have taken from Iraq we didn’t. Not to mention that the letter you referenced, the one that started this tangent, has nothing at all to conquering Iraq for its resources. ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/45 "2010-07-07T10:20:35Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You are of course conveniently ignoring my point that we expected to have decades to loot it. We didn’t expect that the government such as it is would have the nerve to say “no”, nor did we intend to leave. Bush and friends even talked beforehand about how the oil money was going to pay for the war; we were going to make them pay for their own slaughter and torture and degradation. I am only ignoring your wild speculation that the only reason the US’s dastardly plans to steal Iraqi oil were foiled because the US decided to transfer power to a native Iraqi government and because the insurgency managed to at least twice temporarily stop the export (not the production) of oil for a period of about a week. If the US was primarily (and only) concerned about looting Iraqi oil, there is no reason why it would take a decade or more to actually do so. Or that the US would allow and foster the creation of one of the key impediments for this plan (an Iraqi government). Please address this point with something other than speculation. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/46 "2010-07-07T11:58:51Z")
Not complicated and perfectly well documented. The NeoCons’ had no grasp whatsoever of the post-invasion landscape and assumed Iraqi would rush to grasp the free market opportunities, opportunities that had been denied them previously and which they all longed for. It went pear-shaped immediately and the rest is all about desperately recalibrating to situations increasingly out of the control of the occupying forces. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/47 "2010-07-07T12:03:51Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > I am only ignoring your wild speculation that the only reason the US’s dastardly plans to steal Iraqi oil were foiled because the US decided to transfer power to a native Iraqi government and because the insurgency managed to at least twice temporarily stop the export (not the production) of oil for a period of about a week. If the US was primarily (and only) concerned about looting Iraqi oil, there is no reason why it would take a decade or more to actually do so. Or that the US would allow and foster the creation of one of the key impediments for this plan (an Iraqi government). Please address this point with something other than speculation. I’ve already pointed out the reasons why, you are simply choosing to ignore them, along with distorting what I have been saying. As for why they fostered a government that was willing to oppose them, it appears to be yet another example of their utter incompetence; the Bushies couldn’t even set up a proper puppet government. ---
**Author:** ![Zanthor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@Zanthor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zanthor)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/48 "2010-07-07T12:09:36Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > I am only ignoring your wild speculation that the only reason the US’s dastardly plans to steal Iraqi oil were foiled because the US decided to transfer power to a native Iraqi government and because the insurgency managed to at least twice temporarily stop the export (not the production) of oil for a period of about a week. If the US was primarily (and only) concerned about looting Iraqi oil, there is no reason why it would take a decade or more to actually do so. Or that the US would allow and foster the creation of one of the key impediments for this plan (an Iraqi government). Please address this point with something other than speculation. Actually, is it not that the Iraqi US puppet Govt decided to honour previous contracts of its Oil to Russia that pst the USA off so greatly? Seems to me, cant be pretending to ‘offer’ ( sic) democracy on one hand then totally acting like a dictator on the other. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/49 "2010-07-07T12:15:46Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, it doesn’t. Well, you can pretend the United States occupied the Oil Ministry building and had the Iraq Petroleum Law drafted in order to facilitate the search for WMD’s if you like, but I suspect more obvious motives. Which lie would you prefer I believe, the one about WMD’s or the one about fighting Al Qaeda over there so you don’t have to deal with the consequences of war over here or the one about how Iraq was free? > [@](#): > > Because as pointed out, even when we could have taken from Iraq we didn’t. As pointed out, no one said their plan was a good one. Maybe they counted on being greeted as liberators by a native workforce happy to work for the US. Maybe they thought the world would be on their side. Why guess about what they did not do when what they did do was plain to see? > [@](#): > > Not to mention that the letter you referenced, the one that started this tangent, has nothing at all to conquering Iraq for its resources. I see no reason to pretend the authors are honest about their motives in light of their actions five years later. If Rumsfeld can defend looting and burning as a sign of freedom with a straight face, for instance, he can say anything. And we all know what a bastion of integrity William Kristol is, right? ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/50 "2010-07-07T13:58:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’ve already pointed out the reasons why, you are simply choosing to ignore them, along with distorting what I have been saying. What have I distorted? You have completely sidestepped the question by saying that the US planned to be in Iraq for decades and therefore did not plan on seizing oil fields or oil supplies until much further down the road for some reason. It’s everything after “therefore” in the previous sentence that you have supplied zero facts to support. Thus, it’s just speculation, and it’s speculation that doesn’t even make sense since power abhors a vacuum and the precise time when the US would have had the perfect opportunity to seize oil fields and oil supplies is when no one or thing could stop them. Not a decade or more down the road when things, according to the US line of thinking at the time, would have completely calmed down. > [@](#): > > As for why they fostered a government that was willing to oppose them, it appears to be yet another example of their utter incompetence; the Bushies couldn’t even set up a proper puppet government. This doesn’t make sense. The US had an intricate plan to invade Iraq, topple its dictator and government, seize Iraq’s oil fields as part of a plan to stay in Iraq for decades, yet at the same time completely voluntarily set up an interim Iraqi government and helped schedule elections for early 2005 that guaranteed the US would not have free and unlimited reign? Your answer to things that do not fit your pre-conceived narrative seem to be either the US had a master conspiracy theory or that the US was incompetent, which caused the conspiracy to fail. This is circular logic. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/51 "2010-07-07T14:06:48Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > I see no reason to pretend the authors are honest about their motives in light of their actions five years later. Actions which included, btw, having the invasion troops bypass and ignore virtually every site where their “intelligence” said the WMD’s that they’d used as a pretext for their war were located, going straight for the oil facilities instead, after claiming prior to it that the war and reconstruction would be entirely paid for revenues from seized oil. But one can believe whatever lies one wants to, however transparent; that’s your right - as long as one accepts responsibility for the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Zanthor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@Zanthor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zanthor)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/52 "2010-07-07T14:12:22Z")
what concerns me most is reports just starting to circulate of US Forward Bases, in Afghanistan, that have zilch to do with the destabalisation and control of preparing for the eventual war with Iran, then Russia, ---
**Author:** ![Zanthor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@Zanthor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zanthor)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/53 "2010-07-07T14:21:32Z")
Sorry, should read. what concerns me most is reports just starting to circulate of US Forward Bases, in Afghanistan, that have zilch to do with the destabalisation and control of Afghanistan, instead are preparing for the eventual war with Iran, then Russia, ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/54 "2010-07-07T14:32:46Z")
> [@Zanthor](#): > > Sorry, should read. > what concerns me most is reports just starting to circulate of US Forward Bases, in Afghanistan, that have zilch to do with the destabalisation and control of Afghanistan, > instead are preparing for the eventual war with Iran, then Russia, If you’re going to refer to a report or article, link to it. But you don’t seem to know what forward operating bases are. They are not staging grounds for massive invasions. They are relatively small (and often times in Afghanistan, very crude) bases that serve as a small fort and depot far from any primary base or city that allows forces stationed there to conduct local operations. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/55 "2010-07-07T14:48:28Z")
Camus, two documents to illustrate the point: [Project for the New American Century’s report, Rebuilding America’s Defenses](http://www.newamericancentury.org/defensenationalsecurity.htm) [Pillaging Iraq in pursuit of a neocon utopia, Naomi Klein](http://www.harpers.org/archive/2004/09/0080197) ---
**Author:** ![Zanthor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@Zanthor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zanthor)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/56 "2010-07-07T14:54:13Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > If you’re going to refer to a report or article, link to it. But you don’t seem to know what forward operating bases are. They are not staging grounds for massive invasions. They are relatively small (and often times in Afghanistan, very crude) bases that serve as a small fort and depot far from any primary base or city that allows forces stationed there to conduct local operations. its early days yet, time will tell, meanwhiles. try this [http://rt.com/](http://rt.com/) more specifically this. [http://rt.com/Best\_Videos/2010-07-06/us-bases-war-russia.html](http://rt.com/Best_Videos/2010-07-06/us-bases-war-russia.html) ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/57 "2010-07-07T15:30:00Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Camus, two documents to illustrate the point: > > [Project for the New American Century’s report, Rebuilding America’s Defenses](http://www.newamericancentury.org/defensenationalsecurity.htm) > [Pillaging Iraq in pursuit of a neocon utopia, Naomi Klein](http://www.harpers.org/archive/2004/09/0080197) Two very dated and therefore irrelevant articles. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/58 "2010-07-07T15:46:44Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [Antiwar.com Blog](http://www.antiwar.com/blog/) Here is an interview with retired Col. Douglas McGregor in which he says we should not be in Afghanistan. He also explains the politics behind it. It is a waste of treasure and lives . No good can come from it. This is the same guy that advocated invading Iraq with 50,000 soldiers – yes, one-third of what we actually sent in, which was far below what was called for. He then criticized the conduct of the war, saying that the generals in charge of it were trying to pin the blame on poor ol’ Don Rumsfeld. [Link.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4917276.stm) Believe this guy at your own risk. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/59 "2010-07-07T16:19:21Z")
Okay, again. What are the consequences if we just packed up and came home? All hell breaks loose how? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/60 "2010-07-07T16:36:50Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > This is the same guy that advocated invading Iraq with 50,000 soldiers – yes, one-third of what we actually sent in, which was far below what was called for. He then criticized the conduct of the war, saying that the generals in charge of it were trying to pin the blame on poor ol’ Don Rumsfeld. [Link.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4917276.stm) > > Believe this guy at your own risk. He explains how current officers are under political pressure. i am sure you have noticed military brass are much more honest when they retire. That is unless they work for a defense contractor, then they sell out their souls. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700.md?page=4)