# Is Afghanistan "Worth It"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2010, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700 "2010-07-06T11:05:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/81 "2010-07-07T17:46:59Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > What have I distorted? You have completely sidestepped the question by saying that the US planned to be in Iraq for decades and therefore did not plan on seizing oil fields or oil supplies until much further down the road for some reason. In fact China seems to be moving in where timid western companies see only risk. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/82 "2010-07-07T17:50:36Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > He explains how current officers are under political pressure. i am sure you have noticed military brass are much more honest when they retire. That is unless they work for a defense contractor, then they sell out their souls. In other words, his view happens to coincide with yours now, so of course he ought to be listened to… just as long as we ignore all those times he was spectacularly wrong and you didn’t agree with him. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/83 "2010-07-07T17:54:26Z")
This is where these sort of discussions get silly. This “I’ve fought for my country, hence my opinions are more valid than yours”, is a pile of shite. My bet is there are as many morons and incompetents in the military as there is is in any other large societal group. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/84 "2010-07-07T17:58:08Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > They’re going to take violent exception to the “destroying their culture” bit. The Taliban are southern religious conservatives. They believe that their religion and holy book should be the base on which the country is governed. They strongly believe in family values and the right to bear arms. They hate immoral influences in their lives like the stuff that comes out of Hollywood. They drive around in pickup trucks. The more you try and change their culture the more they’re going to cling to their guns and their religion. I’d go as far as to say that rying to change them into a more liberal society is an absolute non-starter. Taliban? I thought you were describing the tea baggers. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/85 "2010-07-07T18:01:35Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > In other words, his view happens to coincide with yours now, so of course he ought to be listened to… just as long as we ignore all those times he was spectacularly wrong and you didn’t agree with him. Not at all. I think most people in his position are coming from a bias. They train in army for 4 decades. I think that is enough to color your position. do not totally accept everything he says. But I find retired military men often change their views when they retire. What would you attribute that to? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/86 "2010-07-07T18:11:53Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Winning. Destroying their culture and making them rich, happy and modern. The “White Man’s Burden”, huh? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > So you’re pretty much just using a Conspiracy Theory, then. No, in this case we have the “It’s Not a Conspiracy” theory, the mirror image of Conspiracy Theory thinking where no matter how blatant and unsubtle, the agenda of the people behind the conquest is denied. > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Why? You figure that they have a genetic block against wanting to be rich and happy? Perhaps there is something special about Afghan society that makes it more obdurate than Korean society? > > It will take time, it will take blood, it will take money, but there is no obvious reason why it will not work. There’s the fact that we have no genuine interest in actually helping them, for one. And any progress that South Korea has made has been in spite of us, not because of us given our track record. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/87 "2010-07-07T18:12:24Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > We may have more moral authority and what we are doing is probably better for Afghanistan than leaving them to the Taliban but is it worth it? What end result can we reach with our current policy? If you fail to see what end result can be achieved with “our” current policy then I’m afraid my proselytizing will not change your current point of view. It’s all subjective really. Ask the Dutch if they’re better off for being liberated by (chiefly) Canadians on the 5th of May 1945. Maybe we should have just let them be? I’m telling you, the Afghans I’ve spoken with, the ones who were fortunate enough to escape the country, are very thankful for the freedom the coalition is bringing to their country right now. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/88 "2010-07-07T19:22:41Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > I’m telling you, the Afghans I’ve spoken with, the ones who were fortunate enough to escape the country, are very thankful for the freedom the coalition is bringing to their country right now. Well, they would wouldn’t they. Because they wanted to leave. But guess what the view might be of those who didn’t leave, who chose to stay? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/89 "2010-07-07T23:39:23Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Yes, we gave up in Vietnam too. Those people were sent to ‘reeducation camps,’ the ones in Cambodia were butchered like cattle. So you think doing that the women of Afghanistan is a good idea? > > Do you value the lives of Westerners more than the lives of Afghani women? Why? > > (Please excuse me, it is moving toward bedtime in this half of the world. I do value your comments and hope to read them in the morning.) We killed somewhere between two and three million people in Vietnam. If you’re deciding whose system is worse on the basis of them being mass murdering motherfuckers, on the number of dead bodies they produce then the US is clearly far worse than the Viet Minh, no? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/90 "2010-07-07T23:41:17Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Taliban? I thought you were describing the tea baggers. The Taliban have beards so you can tell them apart easily. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/91 "2010-07-07T23:48:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > We had more than ample opportunity to steal the oil if we wanted to. We had pretty compelte control of the oil fields, the insurgents simply couldn’t operate out in teh middle of teh desert where the oil fields were, theya re just too easy to spot amongs teh dunes of sand. Even Saddam had to pay off the various tribes whose land Iraq’s millions of miles of oil pipelines/infrastructure ran through. If those people had wanted to blow the pipelines up every day they would have done. Also, exactly how do we steal the oil? The Iraqis aren’t going to turn up for work and pump their oil for us. Where do we get tens of thousands of highly specialised employees to manage Iraq’s oilfields? How likely are highly sought-after people already employed in safe parts of the world to relocate into a war zone? How well would OPEC countries take the US invading an OPEC country and stealing their oil? Turn their spigots off till we left perhaps? How would the US becoming a rogue nation work for us in the world in general? It’s ridiculous to think we could just take their oilfields over and pump their oil out. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/92 "2010-07-08T00:01:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And any progress that South Korea has made has been in spite of us, not because of us given our track record. That’s simply not true. US foreign aid/training/consultation to South Korea was a huge impetus for the buildup of their infrastructure and transformation from an agricultural society into an industrial one in the 1950’s and 1960’s. South Korea still views the USA in a very positive light. We actually, really and truly helped them enormously to become what they are today, with our American lives liberating them in the Korean War, our money, other aid and advice, as well as our ongoing protection in terms of our own military from a hostile, backwards, brainwashed neighbor in North Korea. You couldn’t be more wrong on that issue. Yes, they did a lot of development on their own through nationalistic policies of their finance and industry, but it wouldn’t have been possible without US dollars, help and military protection. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/93 "2010-07-08T02:12:23Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > This is where these sort of discussions get silly. This “I’ve fought for my country, hence my opinions are more valid than yours”, is a pile of shite. My bet is there are as many morons and incompetents in the military as there is is in any other large societal group. No, my opinions are not more valid because I am militant. But it is an effective foil to the personal attack I was replying to. I was asked if an of the sacrifice would be mine. I explained I had done my bit. (You are following the comments in context, aren’t you?) ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/94 "2010-07-08T02:19:25Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > We killed somewhere between two and three million people in Vietnam. If you’re deciding whose system is worse on the basis of them being mass murdering motherfuckers, on the number of dead bodies they produce then the US is clearly far worse than the Viet Minh, no? No, the Afghanis allowed their territory to be used to attack us. We will ensure that never happens again. We decided that their culture needed to be razed because the one they have now is a menace. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/95 "2010-07-08T02:21:55Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Even Saddam had to pay off the various tribes whose land Iraq’s millions of miles of oil pipelines/infrastructure ran through. If those people had wanted to blow the pipelines up every day they would have done. Also, exactly how do we steal the oil? The Iraqis aren’t going to turn up for work and pump their oil for us. Where do we get tens of thousands of highly specialised employees to manage Iraq’s oilfields? How likely are highly sought-after people already employed in safe parts of the world to relocate into a war zone? How well would OPEC countries take the US invading an OPEC country and stealing their oil? Turn their spigots off till we left perhaps? How would the US becoming a rogue nation work for us in the world in general? It’s ridiculous to think we could just take their oilfields over and pump their oil out. Let me check the title of the thread for you. (Pause) Nope, we are talking about Afghanistan, not Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/96 "2010-07-08T02:33:03Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > For the third time, what horrible, terrible, no good, very bad consequences will occur if the U.S. just packed up and went home? Can someone please lay this out in detail for me? Afghanistan will stay what it has always been, a thieving cesspit. It will be one of the last places of earth otherwise rare diseases breed. It will be a place that protects people who fly planes into our buildings. Its women will be held as slaves; its children will be raped. They will grow opium. They will attack the world’s cultural heritage. They will be a drain on the world’s charity and a general pest. They will be what they have always have been. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/97 "2010-07-08T02:56:00Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Afghanistan will stay what it has always been, a thieving cesspit. It will be one of the last places of earth otherwise rare diseases breed. It will be a place that protects people who fly planes into our buildings. Its women will be held as slaves; its children will be raped. They will grow opium. They will attack the world’s cultural heritage. > > They will be a drain on the world’s charity and a general pest. > > They will be what they have always have been. Strange, 17 of the 19 highjackers were from Saudi Arabia. They funded it. It was planned there, Germany, Miami and a couple other places not including Afghanistan. Quit buying what the politicians and TV sell. They lie. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/98 "2010-07-08T02:59:01Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I ask because combat deaths (US and coalition) have passed 1900. We have spent 100’s of $ billions, and 9 years trying to : > > - end the rule of the Taliban > - bring some education to the Afghan people > -“stabilize” Afghanistan > What I am asking..is this worth the loss of lives and treasure? > I am not sure-I think that Afghanistan will never become a peaceful democracy-the place is just too mired in ignorance. I think we will eventually leave, and all of this will have been a waste. > What do you think? Remember what a relief it was when America got out of Vietnam ? This present use of ground forces in combat in Afghanistan (2001 to 2010) has already taken longer than what was endured in Vietnam from 1965 to 1972. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/99 "2010-07-08T03:00:32Z")
No. Afghanistan is not worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700/100 "2010-07-08T03:05:45Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Remember what a relief it was when America got out of Vietnam ? > > This present use of ground forces in combat in Afghanistan (2001 to 2010) has already taken longer than what was endured in Vietnam from 1965 to 1972. Remember the reeducation camps? Remember the one-party rule? Remember the police state? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-afghanistan-worth-it/545700.md?page=6)