# Is "African-American" Fading? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 21, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183 "2009-05-21T16:12:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183/61 "2009-05-24T02:47:44Z")
> [@Lama\_Pacos](#): > > I think that’s a bit pedantic. Anything can be explained in so many words, but for useful distinctions that are otherwise lengthy to describe, concise terms can be helpful. There’s no way to make “concise” terms that are “useful” in this case. There are too many categories of brown-skinned people to make it in any way feasible. “Descendant of a recent immigrant” is pretty damn concise anyway. (And inaccurate, in Barack Obama’s case.) ---
**Author:** ![GameHat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ed655f/32.png) [@GameHat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GameHat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183/62 "2009-05-24T03:50:51Z")
FWIW, I’m a white guy. I’ve never really liked the term African-American - it’s just too vague. Is an [Afrikaner](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaner) who has taken US citizenship an “African American”? Is a black woman whose ancestors run 4 generations deep in the US really “African-American”? If somebody wants to use the term on themselves, it doesn’t bother me. They are free to choose their own name. More power to them. On the other hand, I’m white. And an American. The idea of calling me an “Irish-American” or a “German-American” both seem completely ridiculous. Sure, my ancestors came from the aforementioned countries, but I don’t have any mystical, emotional or cultural connections to them. I’m an American. My parents are American. My grandparents are American. At a certain point, it seems silly to me to claim a cultural name when you have no real bond to said culture. I have German ancestry; I have no connection to German culture (other than a love of sausages and sauerkraut). I have Irish ancestry; I have no connection to Irish culture (other than a love of alcohol, in all its forms). So it seems silly to me to claim anything other than being American. ---
**Author:** ![alexandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@alexandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alexandra)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183/63 "2009-05-24T11:17:13Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > People who refer to black people who aren’t from the U.S. as “African-American” are just on auto-pilot and not thinking about what they’re saying. They’re not trying to claim that all black people are American or anything; they’ve just trained themselves not to say “black,” so “African-American” spills out instead. I can’t see that there’s anything offensively “US-centric” in the term, any more so than in someone calling themself “Irish-American.” Well, I think Irish people from Ireland would not like to be known as Irish-American. It could be seen as offensively stupid to call a non American black person African-American, whether or not you mean well. I mean, an offhand mistake is just a :smack: moment IMHO (but then I’m not black British or Nigerian or …, and no-one would ever call me a White American!) but it is **wrong**. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183/64 "2009-05-24T15:50:48Z")
> [@GameHat](#): > > I’m a white guy. I’ve never really liked the term African-American - it’s just too vague. Is an [Afrikaner](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaner) who has taken US citizenship an “African American”? Is a black woman whose ancestors run 4 generations deep in the US really “African-American”? > > If somebody wants to use the term on themselves, it doesn’t bother me. They are free to choose their own name. More power to them. > > On the other hand, I’m white. And an American. The idea of calling me an “Irish-American” or a “German-American” both seem completely ridiculous. Sure, my ancestors came from the aforementioned countries, but I don’t have any mystical, emotional or cultural connections to them. I’m an American. My parents are American. My grandparents are American. > > At a certain point, it seems silly to me to claim a cultural name when you have no real bond to said culture. I have German ancestry; I have no connection to German culture (other than a love of sausages and sauerkraut). I have Irish ancestry; I have no connection to Irish culture (other than a love of alcohol, in all its forms). So it seems silly to me to claim anything other than being American. In a perfect world, we would all be color blind . . . yes, I agree. But this is a people with a history, and not a particularly bright and sunny one for the last few hundred years at least. You can’t really make direct comparisons between them and Americans of European descent. I used to feel pretty much exactly like you; I had a couple white friends from Africa, and I thought it was dumb that no one would think to call them African American. But I’ve realized that AA is a cultural term more than a racial one (although I’m pretty sure being black is a prereq.) And it’s different from the sum of its parts. In a way - and some of you will think this is flat-out ridiculous, like I would’ve a few years ago - an immigrant from Kenya is not an African American like a guy from Harlem is. He’s African, and he’s American, but he’s not an African American. In the same sense, I think Obama is our first black president, but not really our first African American president. In short . . . it’s really complicated. The term should not be dismissed unilaterally any more than it should be applied universally. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183/65 "2009-05-24T15:52:31Z")
I thought ‘African-American’ was the ‘new Black’. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183/66 "2009-05-24T15:58:19Z")
I think if you are going to use the word “African-American” then you should also use the term “European-American” to describe anyone who is “white.” It’s just being consistent, isn’t it? Or is there some reason why all European-Americans should be lumped together as “white” and defined by the color of their skin alone (and an imprecise descriptor of that color, for that matter) while those of African ancestry get a seven-syllable, hyphenated word to describe them? I think this constantly changing name-game is really ridiculous, and I am going to use the terms “black” and “white” because they’re shorter and simpler than the alternatives. And if anyone ever tells me that I should use the term “African-American” instead (which has not happened to me a single time in my life, by the way) then I am going to tell them that I want them to henceforth only use the term “European-American.” ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183/67 "2009-05-25T01:19:32Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > You’re skeptical that people from America are Americans? 😕 > > I assure you that if you knew enough people from Latin America, or took a college course in North American, South American, Latin American, or Western Hemisphere studies, you would be thoroughly disabused of this notion. It’s commonly cited as a point of arrogance that we think we’re the only Americans. I’m not skeptical that people from the American continents are Americans; I’m skeptical that there are sizable numbers of people who identify as American first, and a nationality second outside of the United States of America. And can you tell me how many people I need to know from Latin America, or courses in the topics you proffer I need to have taken to hold this perspective? I earned my doctorate at an institution with the preeminent Africana Studies program in the nation and an internationally recognized Latin American Studies program, and took courses and researched in both departments. I’m not exaggerating when I say that I have friends from virtually every nation in the American continents… and they are Venezuelan, Trinidadian, Brazilian, Peruvian, Canadian, Nicaraguan, and so forth, in the decade plus time I’ve known most of them. And they refer to me as an American - even though I am first-generation born in this country, with a parent from… the Caribbean. So I can assure you in Jamaica, for one reference point, there is a strong national and cultural identity that is Jamaican… and I’ve not once heard anyone in my extended family or in the sizable group of folks I know that any type of “American” identity factors into it, though everyone is quite aware that the country is part of the North American continent. In fact, if you talk to some of my Puerto Rican friends, you will hear them proudly speak of their Puerto Rican heritage and the American identity as an afterthought - actually, that’s far too gentle. They resent being seen as “American.” More to the point, this discussion was specifically centered around the term “African American,” which I noted is an inaccurate label for the majority of people in the world who are Black. My colleagues and I in the Africana Studies department at the university where I am a professor are in the midst of a name change, because we collectively feel that the “American” label in our department is far too narrow for a collective of researchers who study the African diaspora in Brazil, Canada, the Caribbean, and Latin America - all of which are on the American continent. In your response to **GameHat** , you said more or less the same thing as I’m saying here, so to be honest I’m a little confused to the point you were making earlier. Yes, I’m well aware that “American” can refer to anyone from the two continents of that name. But again, in common discourse, when we read that someone is “American,” we have a common understanding of what that means. Similarly, this nation is not the only United States in this continent, but if someone mentions “the United States” very few think you’re referring to Mexico. This is not to dismiss the “arrogance” (not sure if that’s the right term) that U.S. Americans have in using the term. But it’s no less arrogant than referring to this half of the world as the Western Hemisphere, or affixing the name of an Italian explorer to a continent and people who had already named themselves. And **Argent Towers** , I do sometimes refer to White Americans as European Americans, for similar reasons that you mention. As a term of self-identification, most White folks I know can specifically refer to Scotland, Germany, Russia, or a combination of nations (as an example) for their heritage. Part of the power of “African American” is that it is a reminder that for many of us, we will never know if our roots lie in Ghana or Benin, or elsewhere… it’s one of the reminders of the tragedies of the diaspora. Skip Gates recently had a series on PBS, “African-American Lives,” where through the use of DNA testing, he helped several prominent Blacks learn where in Africa they came from. That was particularly poignant for me and many Black folks I’ve discussed this with, because most of us would likely be like Gates - more European than African. By the way, I’ve never insisted on anyone calling me anything but my given name. If I’m a scholar deeply immersed in the stuff and it doesn’t bother me a great deal as long as you use a post-1960s descriptor (i.e., not “Negro,” “Nigra,” or “colored”) when referring to me phenotypically, I suspect that’s the case with most Black Americans. At least it is among the hundreds if not thousands of Black people I know. I might know one or two who would insist on being called Afrikan or something, but they’re a little… “eccentric?” ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183/68 "2009-05-25T01:44:05Z")
> [@Hippy\_Hollow](#): > > I’m not skeptical that people from the American continents are Americans; I’m skeptical that there are sizable numbers of people who identify as American first, and a nationality second outside of the United States of America. > > And can you tell me how many people I need to know from Latin America, or courses in the topics you proffer I need to have taken to hold this perspective? I earned my doctorate at an institution with the preeminent Africana Studies program in the nation and an internationally recognized Latin American Studies program, and took courses and researched in both departments. I’m not exaggerating when I say that I have friends from virtually every nation in the American continents… and they are Venezuelan, Trinidadian, Brazilian, Peruvian, Canadian, Nicaraguan, and so forth, in the decade plus time I’ve known most of them. And they refer to me as an American - even though I am first-generation born in this country, with a parent from… the Caribbean. So I can assure you in Jamaica, for one reference point, there is a strong national and cultural identity that is Jamaican… and I’ve not once heard anyone in my extended family or in the sizable group of folks I know that any type of “American” identity factors into it, though everyone is quite aware that the country is part of the North American continent. > > In fact, if you talk to some of my Puerto Rican friends, you will hear them proudly speak of their Puerto Rican heritage and the American identity as an afterthought - actually, that’s far too gentle. They resent being seen as “American.” > > More to the point, this discussion was specifically centered around the term “African American,” which I noted is an inaccurate label for the majority of people in the world who are Black. My colleagues and I in the Africana Studies department at the university where I am a professor are in the midst of a name change, because we collectively feel that the “American” label in our department is far too narrow for a collective of researchers who study the African diaspora in Brazil, Canada, the Caribbean, and Latin America - all of which are on the American continent. > > In your response to **GameHat** , you said more or less the same thing as I’m saying here, so to be honest I’m a little confused to the point you were making earlier. Yes, I’m well aware that “American” can refer to anyone from the two continents of that name. But again, in common discourse, when we read that someone is “American,” we have a common understanding of what that means. Similarly, this nation is not the only United States in this continent, but if someone mentions “the United States” very few think you’re referring to Mexico. > > This is not to dismiss the “arrogance” (not sure if that’s the right term) that U.S. Americans have in using the term. But it’s no less arrogant than referring to this half of the world as the Western Hemisphere, or affixing the name of an Italian explorer to a continent and people who had already named themselves. I think you wrote all of this, and all of post #42, in response to either misreading or misunderstanding what I said. All I said was > [@](#): > > There are some layers of confusion here, because a Canadian is an American, in a lot of people’s eyes. Canada is just as much a part of America as the United States, or Mexico, or Argentina is. Ethnic, cultural, and racial descriptors are just not an exact science. Which is true, though different from “there are sizable numbers of people who identify as American first, and a nationality second outside of the United States of America.” Though, especially the further south you go, people do tend to think of their continent when you say America. It’s even a common given name in Mexico and Central and South America. I was with an Argentinean woman just last night named America. And I have personally witnessed Latin Americans get irritated when someone is talking about “America” and they find out they’re talking about “the United States of America.” They would also never call us Americans. I say those things just as an observation, without offering my opinion of it. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183/69 "2009-05-25T01:59:10Z")
Okay, **Cisco** maybe I did misunderstand - I can see how you might be making a corollary point to mine, rather than challenging it. If that’s the case, then we’re talking past each other. I’ve known a few Américas myself. I’ve never asked the meaning of their names, but it’s the Spanish female version of Amerigo, which is Italian… not the most common name, but not unheard of either. I have heard people express umbrage with “America” meaning the USA, but never with “American” meaning someone born in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183/70 "2009-05-25T04:17:59Z")
> [@alexandra](#): > > Well, I think Irish people from Ireland would not like to be known as Irish-American. It could be seen as offensively stupid to call a non American black person African-American, whether or not you mean well. > > I mean, an offhand mistake is just a :smack: moment IMHO (but then I’m not black British or Nigerian or …, and no-one would ever call me a White American!) but it is **wrong**. 😕 What about my comment indicated that I thought Irish people from Ireland should be called Irish-Americans?? **Of course** the only people who should be called \_\_\_\_\_\_\_-Americans are _Americans_. My point, again, is that people who call non-American black people “African-Americans” are just, as you say, having a :smack: moment. It’s an unthinking slip of the tongue from people who’ve been conditioned to automatically say “African-American” because they’ve been trained that “black” is offensive. It’s wrong, but there is no ill will or arrogance behind it. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183/71 "2009-05-25T21:52:31Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Latino = Of a culture that speaks Latin-based languages, but especially all Americans south of the United States. _Most_ Americans south of the United States – Belize and Guyana were parts of the British Empire, and are thus officially Anglophone. Many of the Caribbean islands, which include both independent nations and remaining British possessions, are also English-speaking. Suriname was a Dutch colony. Of course, many residents of these lands speak Spanish as well as (or, in some cases, better than) they speak English. [Quote=Cisco] Technically French Canadians and Italian Americans are latinos but no one ever uses it that way. [/quote] You can add residents of French Guiana, Martinique, Guadeloupe, and Haiti (although most Haitians speak Haitian Creole, and relatively few are fluent in “pure” French). Generally, however, the main difference between “Hispanic” and “Latino” is that the latter term encompasses Portuguese-speaking Brazil as well as Spanish-speaking Mexico, Argentina, Cuba, _et alii_. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183/72 "2009-05-25T21:55:10Z")
Yes, after I wrote ‘all’ I knew I should’ve written ‘most’. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183/73 "2009-05-26T16:26:44Z")
If you look at google trends for “African American,” you’ll [see](http://www.google.com/trends?q=%22african+american%22&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0) that the usage has been going down slowly but steadily over the past five years, while [black](http://www.google.com/trends?q=black&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0), (including its non-race usage) has held pretty steady. ---
**Author:** ![TheFaerie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TheFaerie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFaerie)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183/74 "2009-05-26T17:16:42Z")
I’m not being sarcastic here, but what should those of us born in the United States of America call ourselves if referring to our nationality as American may be construed as arrogent? Unitedstatesofamericans? Unitedstatesians? USians? We don’t have a beautiful country name to personallize like most other countries. We have America (which really is a beautiful sounding name when repeated over and over). That’s it. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183/75 "2009-05-26T17:29:06Z")
We can call ourselves Americans (because we are); we should just be self aware of using America to mean USA or American to mean _only_ people from the USA when speaking to people from other countries, especially Latin American countries. I think when we’re talking to each other, American is probably fine. Context matters. BTW, Spanish speakers call us estadounidenses, but then again I think Germans call us Amerikaners if I’m remembering correctly. Like I said earlier, it’s complicated. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183/76 "2009-05-26T17:59:37Z")
> [@TheFaerie](#): > > I’m not being sarcastic here, but what should those of us born in the United States of America call ourselves if referring to our nationality as American may be construed as arrogent? Unitedstatesofamericans? Unitedstatesians? USians? We don’t have a beautiful country name to personallize like most other countries. We have America (which really is a beautiful sounding name when repeated over and over). That’s it. I really do tell people I’m “from the States”. That’s not to say I never use American, but I like the sound of “From the States” and thus have use it a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183/77 "2009-05-27T02:18:14Z")
> [@TheFaerie](#): > > I’m not being sarcastic here, but what should those of us born in the United States of America call ourselves if referring to our nationality as American may be construed as arrogent? Unitedstatesofamericans? Unitedstatesians? USians? We don’t have a beautiful country name to personallize like most other countries. We have America (which really is a beautiful sounding name when repeated over and over). That’s it. I think this is contextual. If you’re loud, brash, and obnoxious, I think the “American” thing might be the straw that breaks the camel’s back. There’s a legitimate complaint to be made about the all-encroaching American cultural morass, but I think reasonable people understand that simply calling oneself “American” is not indicative of cultural denigration of other people that inhabit these continents. [Quote= Anaamika] I really do tell people I’m “from the States”. That’s not to say I never use American, but I like the sound of “From the States” and thus have use it a lot. [/quote] I suppose someone could even take issue with this, since other nations in the American continent have states as well (i.e., Mexico). Certainly, reasonable people know what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![Fastidiots](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fastidiots](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fastidiots)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183/78 "2009-05-27T03:20:25Z")
Americans are called Americans because the full name of their country plus ans, ish, gian, ers, and ian would be laborious. Canad-ian - acceptable. If the USA were called Manosit, it’d be populated by Manositians. The Americans excluding those of the Americas is largely arbitrary. I’ve referred to myself as a Canadian coming from the Americas, and have often described myself as being essentially American (US) in an argument because there isn’t much point making the distinction (relative to said point). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183/79 "2009-05-27T04:08:36Z")
> [@Hippy\_Hollow](#): > > I suppose someone could even take issue with this, since other nations in the American continent have states as well (i.e., Mexico). Certainly, reasonable people know what you mean. No, they’ve got _estados_. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183/80 "2009-05-27T05:50:35Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, they’ve got _estados_. Is this a whoosh? Both Wikipedia and the official website of the government of Mexico refer to the political divisions as _states_ in English. Estados=state. If you mean that someone from Mexico would most likely use Spanish to refer to states, okay, I guess. Incidentally, Brazil is another American nation with states… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-african-american-fading/497183.md?page=5)