# Is Alcoholism Really a Disease? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2007, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551 "2007-02-02T15:55:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/181 "2007-02-05T18:43:47Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Many of them choose not to bother with the higher power concept at all. And that’s part of my problem with it. The texts make it quite obvious that they believe you need to be “saved” but this is obviously false if you can achieve sobriety without it. Looking at liver disease, for instance, isn’t making illness a higher power; it’s a _consequence_ of drinking. They are two very different things and I do not see how one can be mistaken for the other. [/QUOTE] You use the word **texts** a plural. There is no rules or books other than the ‘Big Book’ of AA as it is called. All those other texts are one persons opinion about something and hold no sway in AA meetings. I do not understand where the idea that one just says to a higher power, “you fix it.” Like Evil Joe just keeps saying and others hint at. - Story:\* Fellow woke up one day and found he was in the middle of the ocean because the last thing he remembered was falling off an ocean liner. Boat after boat came along and each had a different approach. A boat with a human brain painted on the side said to just use you will power to save yourself. Another with a cross painted on it said to pray about it. One with a metal bed painted on it said to get in for 7 days , we’ll move you 1 mile, and then you have to jump out again. A funny looking boat came along with pills painted all over it and gave you a bunch and then drove off again. You keep on drowning and fell the end is near. Then along comes an old row boat with a bunch of different folks in it and they seem to be happy and doing okay. the have to row a lot and it isn’t going real fast but they are warm and dry and not drowning. But they are 95% wearing orange life vests and you hate the color orange. So, will you get in the boat? They are the only one to say, “Join us as we understand all that you have tried to do and that it is not working for you.” They also say, “We will be here anytime you want or need to come. We have no rules, we have no absolutes, we will not exclude you, we may ask you to be quite if you are disruptive, if you don’t like our particular group, there are thousands of other row boats with different people in them. You can even jump in and out and that is fine, we’ll always let you back in as many times as you need to figure out a way to stay, if you want to stay.” So, did the guy in the story get in the boat or did he drown because he disliked the color orange? If folks feel that the row boat is not worth anything but do not have a better solution at hand, why do they scream for the drowning person to die rather than get in the row boat? Would they not be better to be giving of their time and money to finding a better way than trying to tear down the imperfect things that work for millions. Kind of far from the OP question about alcoholism being a disease or not but that is the way we seem to have drifted. I do not see how people who are not recovering alcoholics and active in AA or were active in AA for many years can say what members of AA say in the everyday meetings of AA. Just because AA is the best known does not make it the best or the worst or wrong or right. It is just the best known, A person who does not like that should try to make another better known. Spending all their time taking about AA, good or bad, does not make another solution better known, it just AA gets better known. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/182 "2007-02-05T18:44:17Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] Nope! Neither does AA say you must take God as your saviour for you to remain sober. If it did say that , I’d certainly not attend. You seem to be hanging on a couple of words in some of the texts…but taken as a whole, the program works, otherwise people like **Qadgop the Mercotan** and myelf wouldn’t participate. This is not a difficult equation. But when we start saying you needn’t look at the God aspect of AA literally, people start throwing stones and saying things like: Well if you can take and leave that part, why not the rest of it… Because the rest of it is what makes up the bulk of the help that is being sought. [/QUOTE] But as **Q the M** said, evidence points to a “12-Step” model. You’re saying 12 steps aren’t required. Actually, you’ve said any number of the steps can be taken or left as a person sees fit. So which is it? Do you see where I’m coming from? How can a 12-step program be the most effective treatment when none of the steps are required? The idea of removing one’s self from the triggers (such as the old drinking buddies) makes sense to me. Yet that isn’t a step. The idea that some people need to be talked down from the verge of falling off the wagon also makes sense to me. That’s not a step, either. The constant drilling (via the steps) that you’re somehow morally bankrupt, _even though you’re not drinking_, and the back-door approach to religion; the idea that once you sober up you’ll see your way to god, is disingenuous and offensive in the extreme. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/183 "2007-02-05T18:53:22Z")
**Kalhoun** - I’m not saying that certain steps can be omitted necessarily, but that some can be bent to fit your needs. I say God, you say the easter bunny. That kind of thing. It’s a means to an end that’s all. Not the only, but just one. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Joe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Evil\_Joe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Joe)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/184 "2007-02-05T18:55:43Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] **Evil joe** what exactly are you trying to say? Can you put it into your own words? You are still not making much of a case. What case are you trying to make? Alcoholics shouldn’t use AA to get and stay sober because the big book mentions God on occasion? Or that the 12 steps include a higher power so alcoholics shouldn’t use it? **Valteron** is a die hard aetheist? Why does AA work for him? I could care less if God is used in the program, why does it work for me? Maybe all alcoholics are simple minded folk :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] My point is that AA is a religious organization. I don’t believe religion should be offered as a medical treatment unless it is explicitly stated as such. I am tired of people pissing on my leg and telling me that its raining. I applaud the efforts of atheists like Valeron who have managed the philosophical gymnastics invloved in reconciling the conflicting messages. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/185 "2007-02-05T19:02:25Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Joe] My point is that AA is a religious organization.. [/QUOTE] Gotcha…please read the thread with that title: it’ll explain a lot, it happened about a month ago. I could write volumes on how AA is not a religious organization, but I think all I would accomplish is a few blisters on my fingertips. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/186 "2007-02-05T19:05:54Z")
[QUOTE=GusNSpot] You use the word **texts** a plural. There is no rules or books other than the ‘Big Book’ of AA as it is called. [/quote] _ **Wrong** _. They also have the **Twelve Traditions** publication. > [@](#): > > - Story:\* > Fellow woke up one day and found he was in the middle of the ocean because the last thing he remembered was falling off an ocean liner. Boat after boat came along and each had a different approach. A boat with a human brain painted on the side said to just use you will power to save yourself. Another with a cross painted on it said to pray about it. One with a metal bed painted on it said to get in for 7 days , we’ll move you 1 mile, and then you have to jump out again. A funny looking boat came along with pills painted all over it and gave you a bunch and then drove off again. You keep on drowning and fell the end is near. Then along comes an old row boat with a bunch of different folks in it and they seem to be happy and doing okay. the have to row a lot and it isn’t going real fast but they are warm and dry and not drowning. But they are 95% wearing orange life vests and you hate the color orange. So, will you get in the boat? They are the only one to say, “Join us as we understand all that you have tried to do and that it is not working for you.” They also say, “We will be here anytime you want or need to come. We have no rules, we have no absolutes, we will not exclude you, we may ask you to be quite if you are disruptive, if you don’t like our particular group, there are thousands of other row boats with different people in them. You can even jump in and out and that is fine, we’ll always let you back in as many times as you need to figure out a way to stay, if you want to stay.” > > So, did the guy in the story get in the boat or did he drown because he disliked the color orange? Some of the people in that boat may be so dazzled by the orange vests that they fail to notice their boat has a leak. > [@](#): > > If folks feel that the row boat is not worth anything but do not have a better solution at hand, why do they scream for the drowning person to die rather than get in the row boat? It would be nice if the ocean liner let the man know that there was more than one life raft out there. > [@](#): > > Would they not be better to be giving of their time and money to finding a better way than trying to tear down the imperfect things that work for millions. I believe that’s the job of the professionals. > [@](#): > > Kind of far from the OP question about alcoholism being a disease or not but that is the way we seem to have drifted. AA calls it both a disease and a lapse in moral integrity. > [@](#): > > I do not see how people who are not recovering alcoholics and active in AA or were active in AA for many years can say what members of AA say in the everyday meetings of AA. Every AAer whose ever come around here says that each meeting is different. Each person’s program is different. I find it funny that any members feel they can claim that “it” works when everyone does "it " differently. > [@](#): > > Just because AA is the best known does not make it the best or the worst or wrong or right. It is just the best known, A person who does not like that should try to make another better known. Again, that’s the job of people who make addiction recovery their job. The vast majority don’t even consider alternatives to AA. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/187 "2007-02-05T19:07:46Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Joe] I’ve lurked SD for a long time and think Qadgop is very insightful and very bright! I’m so conflicted!! 😉 [/QUOTE] Me too! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Joe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Evil\_Joe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Joe)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/188 "2007-02-05T19:08:50Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] Gotcha…please read the thread with that title: it’ll explain a lot, it happened about a month ago. I could write volumes on how AA is not a religious organization, but I think all I would accomplish is a few blisters on my fingertips. [/QUOTE] I think I posted in that one too if I remember correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/189 "2007-02-05T19:09:51Z")
Why do professionals in addiction treatment continually point people to AA? Would they (the thousands of professional addiction counselors) point someone to AA if it didn’t work? ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/190 "2007-02-05T19:13:42Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Joe] I think I posted in that one too if I remember correctly. [/QUOTE] Oh yeah. I remember. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Joe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Evil\_Joe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Joe)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/191 "2007-02-05T19:14:23Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] Why do professionals in addiction treatment continually point people to AA? Would they (the thousands of professional addiction counselors) point someone to AA if it didn’t work? [/QUOTE] Many have a vested interest in that they are members, others just have no knowledge of anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/192 "2007-02-05T19:22:18Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] **Kalhoun** - I’m not saying that certain steps can be omitted necessarily, but that some can be bent to fit your needs. I say God, you say the easter bunny. That kind of thing. It’s a means to an end that’s all. Not the only, but just one. [/QUOTE] Thanks, but I don’t think I’d advise anyone to “turn it over” to either the Easter Bunny _or_ god. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/193 "2007-02-05T19:22:44Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Me too! 😉 [/QUOTE] I was telling **Olives** about Q…not you guys. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/194 "2007-02-05T19:24:48Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Thanks, but I don’t think I’d advise anyone to “turn it over” to either the Easter Bunny _or_ god. [/QUOTE] Are you sure? The Easter Bunny has good chocolate! And those Cadberry Eggs! OH GOOD OG! to die for! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Joe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Evil\_Joe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Joe)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/195 "2007-02-05T19:28:11Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] Are you sure? The Easter Bunny has good chocolate! And those Cadberry Eggs! OH GOOD OG! to die for! 😃 [/QUOTE] I agree! And I for one am not going to turn down free money from the tooth fairy - regardless of my beliefs 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/196 "2007-02-05T19:29:11Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Joe] I agree! And I for one am not going to turn down free money from the tooth fairy - regardless of my beliefs 😃 [/QUOTE] HERE HERE!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/197 "2007-02-05T19:31:55Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] Why do professionals in addiction treatment continually point people to AA? Would they (the thousands of professional addiction counselors) point someone to AA if it didn’t work? [/QUOTE] I think for many it provides a temporary fix. That, and the percentage of people who believe in god is so high that it is an acceptable concept for someone who is desperate. Most addicts report multiple visits to rehab and multiple attempts at AA or other programs. That in itself is pretty solid evidence that it is no more effective than other approaches. In my observation, most people simply age out. Here’s an interesting link: [http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/8/prweb427369.htm](http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/8/prweb427369.htm) > [@](#): > > Melanie Solomon is one of the lucky few to overcome her substance abuse but only after a nine-year battle that led her to quit 12-step programs after an almost fatal overdose, and seek out alternative methods to getting healed. The results of her search for help are offered in a valuable new resource, AA: Not The Only Way, Your One-Stop Guide to 12-Step Alternatives. > > Her book provides valuable information that until now could not be found in one comprehensive book. It shares the following: > > - Showcases 8 effective alternative treatments for achieving total abstinence. > - Reveals 2 successful recovery programs that teach moderation therapy for substance abuse. > - Unearths a radically different approach, harm reduction, which emphasizes health and wellness. > - Provides information to help you wisely choose the recovery program that is right for your situation, identifying the major factors that determine what works and what doesn’t. > - Contains a directory of over 100 licensed professionals and treatment programs around the U.S. and abroad that provide options beyond just the 12-step approach. Looks like lots of professionals aren’t doing their homework. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/198 "2007-02-05T19:33:21Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] Are you sure? The Easter Bunny has good chocolate! And those Cadberry Eggs! OH GOOD OG! to die for! 😃 [/QUOTE] Heh-heh…_MY_ Easter Bunny brings me those yummy cherry cordials with the booze in 'em. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/199 "2007-02-05T19:36:06Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Heh-heh…MY Easter Bunny brings me those yummy cherry cordials with the booze in 'em. 😛 [/quote] Again! Be’in a little sh\*t! 😃 [sup]sounds like something my wife - who isn’t an alky - would say… :)[/sup] ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/200 "2007-02-05T19:37:18Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] Again! Be’in a little sh\*t! 😃 [/QUOTE] It’s a dirty job but _someone_ has to do it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551.md?page=11)