# Is Alcoholism Really a Disease? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2007, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551 "2007-02-02T15:55:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/281 "2007-02-11T17:46:58Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] Grumble, Grumble - I’m decently grumpy this morning and should hold my tongue. I would like to see a new set of stats done by an outside source, with more rigid guidlines. The afore mentioned folk steering people to AA must have a different set of stats, as why else would they send more and more people to the rooms of AA? Damn I wish I had a better cite! I have a friend getting his CDAC (Certified Drug and Alcohol Counselor) I must ask him these questions… [/QUOTE] My guess is that because so many addiction counselors are ex-addicts themselves, who were also pointed to AA (and found relief), that they don’t look beyond what worked for them. Again…I have no problem with people who find relief anywhere they look. But when they look to AA, and it doesn’t work, “keep coming back” is not the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/282 "2007-02-11T17:50:29Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] You keep repeating this false claim in every AA thread. AA never claims it is the only means of recovery, not that it is the best means of recovery. They only claim it is the “easiest”; which is a pretty subjective standard you would be hard pressed to disprove. [/QUOTE] I was referring to the professionals who overwhelmingly have no desire to offer other programs (or even look for them) to people who are addicted. And what makes you think it’s the easiest (or that anyone claims it is)? I’ve never heard a member claim that sobriety was anything but a hard process, regardless of which way they achieved it. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/283 "2007-02-11T17:54:28Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] I was referring to the professionals who overwhelmingly have no desire to offer other programs (or even look for them) to people who are addicted. And what makes you think it’s the easiest (or that anyone claims it is)? I’ve never heard a member claim that sobriety was anything but a hard process, regardless of which way they achieved it. [/QUOTE] “Easiest” is a relative term. Recovery is a hard process; some methods are harder than others. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/284 "2007-02-11T17:55:29Z")
Nothing _easy_ about recovery. the AA program is pretty simple, but the process is never easy, no matter what approach one takes. Which is one reason why so many addicts and alcoholics fail . They’ve been looking for the softer, easier approach to life for years. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/285 "2007-02-11T18:06:03Z")
I wish, that after all those trips to rehab, multiple attempts at AA’s method, and a 3 week coma, someone would have told my SIL that CBT or motivational techniques were available. I hesitate to keep bringing her situation up, but she is my most glaring example of someone who tried desperately to understand a different way of looking at life without alcohol. None of the other options were ever presented to her. It was painfully clear that AA wasn’t the answer for her. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/286 "2007-02-11T18:18:48Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] I wish, that after all those trips to rehab, multiple attempts at AA’s method, and a 3 week coma, someone would have told my SIL that CBT or motivational techniques were available. I hesitate to keep bringing her situation up, but she is my most glaring example of someone who tried desperately to understand a different way of looking at life without alcohol. None of the other options were ever presented to her. It was painfully clear that AA wasn’t the answer for her. [/QUOTE] This seems to the crux of your position. _I.e._ generalizing from the particular. AA doesn’t work for everybody but I expect that CBT doesn’t either. Addiction is hard to overcome because I thnk we don’t really know how it works. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/287 "2007-02-11T21:55:36Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] This seems to the crux of your position. _I.e._ generalizing from the particular. AA doesn’t work for everybody but I expect that CBT doesn’t either. Addiction is hard to overcome because I thnk we don’t really know how it works. [/QUOTE] But it’s a crucial crux. Simply put, IMO, the treatment industry needs to let patients know about \*all \*of the alternatives-- in fact, it is their ethical responsibility to do so. And I think that many “treatment professionals” are shirking that responsibility daily and that is killing people. People like **Kalhoun’s** SIL. I think the statistics show it’s efficacy to be lacking but yes–AA _does_ work for some people. But so does CBT and doing nothing special at all. I would like to see AA lose its stranglehold–its near monopoly–on treatment options. People are dying because they aren’t told about other effective methods. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/288 "2007-02-11T22:17:12Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] This seems to the crux of your position. _I.e._ generalizing from the particular. AA doesn’t work for everybody but I expect that CBT doesn’t either. Addiction is hard to overcome because I thnk we don’t really know how it works. [/QUOTE] We don’t fully understand how it works, we can understand the mechanisms and the processes and the new genetc research, but to that end we do not have a good grasp on the “how it works” portion of addiction. If one does nothing they have little chance - if one chooses CBT, AA, MT they at least have a chance. > [@](#): > > People are dying because they aren’t told about other effective methods. Whose responsibility is it to tell people about other methods to recovery? If someone enters the rooms of AA and is in severe need of a Doctor, I would think they are told by someone to go to the ER. Hell I’ve seen people carted off to the ER in the middle of a meeting because they were so severely jaundiced and went so long without seeing a doc, they didn’t know up from down. What else should the everyday AA-er do? Or do you think something should be done before the unfortunate soul comes to AA? What and how should it be done? Most people need to hit so severe a bottom before the come into the rooms of AA that they have already lost everything…Unless people have been there or seen it happen blaming AA for people not finding CBT or MT is not the right bridge to connect. I have seen transformations in AA that would make you think you are seeing two different people. The drunk Dad who earns the right to see his chlidren again, the abusive father apologizing to his adult children…the list goes on…and the feeling I am a member feel when I see a transformation like this? Joy. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/289 "2007-02-11T22:40:22Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] This seems to the crux of your position. _I.e._ generalizing from the particular. AA doesn’t work for everybody but I expect that CBT doesn’t either. Addiction is hard to overcome because I thnk we don’t really know how it works. [/QUOTE] You don’t need to take my word for it regarding AA’s failures. There are millions of people out there that will tell you the same thing. I’m simply highlighting a particularly tragic case. I’m fully aware that CBT doesn’t work for everyone. But it would have been nice to try something new that has proven to work for _some_ rather than sending her back to something that had proven itself useless \*to her \*for all those years. I’ll ask again…how many failed attempts does it take before the professionals will offer an alternative treatment plan? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/290 "2007-02-11T22:42:03Z")
[QUOTE=I Love Me, Vol. I] But it’s a crucial crux. Simply put, IMO, the treatment industry needs to let patients know about \*all \*of the alternatives-- in fact, it is their ethical responsibility to do so. And I think that many “treatment professionals” are shirking that responsibility daily and that is killing people. People like **Kalhoun’s** SIL. [/quote] Fine. Then beat up on the professionals and leave AA out of it. AA doesn’t proselytize. When AA meetings are held in treatment facilities it is the action of the facility and not AA. > [@](#): > > I think the statistics show it’s efficacy to be lacking but yes–AA _does_ work for some people. But so does CBT and doing nothing special at all. I would like to see AA lose its stranglehold–its near monopoly–on treatment options. People are dying because they aren’t told about other effective methods. No one is arguing that. As far as statistics go, I don’t think you can trust statistics with respect to AA. It is probably impossible to get a valid sample because of the Anonymous part of the thing. As to statistics with respect to commercial treatment, the statistic takers are probably paid by the entity they are testing. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/291 "2007-02-11T22:49:23Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] Whose responsibility is it to tell people about other methods to recovery? [/QUOTE] Well, the medical professionals, for starters. I would hope AAers would familiarize themselves with other methods, as well and point people toward additional options. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/292 "2007-02-11T22:59:28Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Well, the medical professionals, for starters. I would hope AAers would familiarize themselves with other methods, as well and point people toward additional options. [/QUOTE] Then as I said above, beat up on the medical professionals and leave AA out of it. Individual AA members are not in the business of treatment. It’s all many can do to stay sober themselves. Familiarising yourself with other methods takes time and doing research into the subject that is beyond the capability and resources of most alcoholics, recovering or otherwise. You are blaming the victims of an addiction for not setting the world straight. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/293 "2007-02-11T23:01:14Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] Fine. Then beat up on the professionals and leave AA out of it. **AA doesn’t proselytize**. When AA meetings are held in treatment facilities it is the action of the facility and not AA. [/quote] Actually, they do. > [@](#): > > 1. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, **we tried to carry this message to others** , and to practice these principles in all our affairs. > [@](#): > > No one is arguing that. As far as statistics go, I don’t think you can trust statistics with respect to AA. It is probably impossible to get a valid sample because of the Anonymous part of the thing. As to statistics with respect to commercial treatment, the statistic takers are probably paid by the entity they are testing. Do you have a cite for that? We already know that the recovery industry has millions of AA members among it. They are, for the most part, ignorant of other methods or willfully ignoring them in favor of AA. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/294 "2007-02-11T23:16:47Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Actually, they do. [/quote] This is a misunderstanding of what that passage means. The message is carried only to those who voluntarily decide to go to a meeting. Maybe a better word would be “recruit” but the definitions of “proselytise” that I find include the word “recruit.” > [@](#): > > Do you have a cite for that? Well, the only cites you have are the very statistics I find questionable for the reasons stated. > [@](#): > > We already know that the recovery industry has millions of AA members among it. They are, for the most part, ignorant of other methods Isn’t that ignorance the fault of the recovery industry and not AA or the induviduals? > [@](#): > > or willfully ignoring them in favor of AA. Do you have a cite for the “willfully ignoring” bit? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/295 "2007-02-11T23:33:13Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Actually, they do. [/quote] Not really. Tradition 11 says: Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and films. This means proselytizing is generally discouraged. AA needs to have its name out there, so when people decide to seek help, they know where they can go. But early attempts to bring the masses into AA via promotion, proselytizing and such generally ended badly, and AA as a whole adopted Tradition 11. > [@](#): > > Do you have a cite for that? We already know that the recovery industry has millions of AA members among it. They are, for the most part, ignorant of other methods or willfully ignoring them in favor of AA. As I said in my earlier post, statistics are slipperier than hell in this area. But having worked taking care of the _physical_ health of thousands of addicts and alcoholics, I hear over and over and over their story about how they had gotten better for a while by going to a 12-step program, but then they stopped going, and stopped doing what they were supposed to do. I’ve almost never heard one say “that approach didn’t work for me”. And I’m asking them these questions as their physician. They don’t know I’m recovering. Nor do I slant my questions towards AA. I ask them what types of treatment or recovery programs they’ve been in, and how they worked. _The responsibility resides with the patient_. They are the ones who must choose to get well. And some of them won’t, no matter what therapy is chosen. During some of my early attempts to recover, I was called by some “the Yoda of AA”. I knew it all chapter and verse. And dispensed plenty of advice on how to stay sober to my fellow AA members (many of whom are still sober now!) But I didn’t practice it. After relapsing, I could have claimed that AA didn’t work for me. Rather I admitted I hadn’t worked AA’s steps. The thing is, AA works about as well as anything else out there (and I suspect that when better studies are analyzed, it’ll show it works better than most other modalities for most patients). And it’s free, it’s everywhere, and if you call them, they’ll even send someone out to take you to a meeting. And heck, if you don’t like the ‘god’ thing, go to Rational Recover, or Secular Organization for Sobriety. Their existence and meeting locations were told to me in treatment. Or if AA represents the dreaded “secular humanistic” approach, go to Alcoholics Victorious or some of the other church based ones. And yes, AA is roundly condemned by many churches for being an agent of secularism. Meanwhile, CBT and MET aren’t widely available. And they’re expensive, and usually insurance doesn’t cover them. So lay off AA. We’re a bunch of drunks who can’t hold our liquor as individuals, but when we get together at a meeting, we manage to stay sober. We have no leaders, no dues, and the only requirement to join is a desire to stop drinking. We’ve become well ourselves, and we’re willing to share our experience, strength and hope with others who’d like to try our way of doing things. If they don’t like our way, or have found a better way for them, more power to them. We can’t give them things we don’t have, like positive experiences in how to stay sober other ways. If we had those things, we wouldn’t be in AA. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/296 "2007-02-11T23:41:28Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] Well, the only cites you have are the very statistics I find questionable for the reasons stated. [/QUOTE] You said > [@](#): > > As to statistics with respect to commercial treatment, the statistic takers are probably paid by the entity they are testing. What brings you to that conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/297 "2007-02-11T23:47:41Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] We already know that the recovery industry has millions of AA members among it. They are, for the most part, ignorant of other methods or willfully ignoring them in favor of AA. [/QUOTE] Really? Cite? What **Qadgop** said. Sorry **K** - but if the millions of people AA has helped stood up and were counted, you be filling Soldier Field over, and over and over again. Further, if everyone in the Chicagoland area who needed a meeting actually went to them…they wouldn’t be held in firehouses and church basements, they’d be in stadiums. Same is true for where I live in CT…but we’d be in Yankee Stadium instead. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/298 "2007-02-11T23:56:27Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] So lay off AA. We’re a bunch of drunks who can’t hold our liquor as individuals, but when we get together at a meeting, we manage to stay sober. We have no leaders, no dues, and the only requirement to join is a desire to stop drinking. We’ve become well ourselves, and we’re willing to share our experience, strength and hope with others who’d like to try our way of doing things. If they don’t like our way, or have found a better way for them, more power to them. We can’t give them things we don’t have, like positive experiences in how to stay sober other ways. If we had those things, we wouldn’t be in AA. [/QUOTE] Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/299 "2007-02-12T04:46:41Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] You said > [@](#): > > As to statistics with respect to commercial treatment, the statistic takers are probably paid by the entity they are testing What brings you to that conclusion? [/QUOTE] Here is the statement from[St. Jude Retreat](http://www.soberforever.net/six-reasons-to-choose-a-rehab-center.cfm) which does indeed contract out its survey. The survey being sponsored by the parent company of St. Jude. > [@](#): > > 1. Highest Independently Verified Success Rate in the nation: The JTP is the only program in the country that has independent outside research firms conducting our success rate surveys.[Click here for more information about Success Rates.](http://www.soberforever.net/program_success1.cfm)**All other programs either conduct their own surveys, [emphasis added]** and/or do so in a manner that is misleading and often dishonest. These misleading surveys produce false hope and can lead to tragic results for you or your loved one There is also this from [Schick Shadel](http://www.schickshadel.com/faq.asp) They do their own which they verify through TV networks. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/300 "2007-02-12T10:34:11Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] I’ve almost never heard one say “that approach didn’t work for me”. And I’m asking them these questions as their physician. They don’t know I’m recovering. Nor do I slant my questions towards AA. I ask them what types of treatment or recovery programs they’ve been in, and how they worked. _The responsibility resides with the patient_. They are the ones who must choose to get well. And some of them won’t, no matter what therapy is chosen. … The thing is, AA works about as well as anything else out there (and I suspect that when better studies are analyzed, it’ll show it works better than most other modalities for most patients). And it’s free, it’s everywhere, and if you call them, they’ll even send someone out to take you to a meeting. [/quote] Yes, in that the patient does the work as opposed to the program being a magic wand to sobriety, I agree AA “works.” _So does my 12-step plan_. There\* is \* no magic wand; sobriety _always_ has to come from the individual. I think my plan is far less off-putting to people who prefer actionable items rather than steps 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 and 11 which require belief in a higher power. > [@](#): > > And heck, if you don’t like the ‘god’ thing, go to Rational Recover, or Secular Organization for Sobriety. Their existence and meeting locations were told to me in treatment. To my knowledge, Rational Recovery does not have meetings anywhere. I believe SOS has on-line meetings as well as physical meetings, though they are not as widely located. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551.md?page=16)