# Is Alcoholism Really a Disease? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2007, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551 "2007-02-02T15:55:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/81 "2007-02-02T22:01:42Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] The reality is that every meeting is different. The rules are so loose as to be nonexistent, and everyone is doing their own thing. Kind of like quitting on your own. šŸ˜› [/QUOTE] You are a little sh\*t sometimes! šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/82 "2007-02-02T22:04:38Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] You are a little sh\*t sometimes! šŸ˜ƒ [/QUOTE] I couldnā€™t resist! šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/83 "2007-02-02T22:51:48Z")
Ahaha, now Iā€™m laughing. You guys are the best. Happy Groundhog Day. šŸ™‚ šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2007, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/84 "2007-02-03T01:12:30Z")
[QUOTE=Geobabe] I still donā€™t see why you think that calling it a disease removes the responsibility from the individual for treating it. Any other disease somebody might have, do they typically say, ā€œOh, so I have Condition X! Thanks a lot, thatā€™s all I need!ā€? If a patient refuses to pursue any kind of treatment, thatā€™s their fault as an individual, not that of the person who made the diagnosisā€“it is the fault of the diagnoser if they tell the patient they donā€™t need to do anything, but that has no bearing on whether or not the condition is a disease. [/QUOTE] Correct. Doctors donā€™t say, ā€œMrs. Jones, I am afraid you have lung cancer. The most important thing to remember is that it isnā€™t your fault even though you smoked 5 packs a day for 30 years. It can happen to anyone.ā€ The disease model doesnā€™t take any responsibility away from the sufferer. It describes the current condition and points to both treatment and causes. The big points for me are that alcoholism appears to be inherited even among children who never knew their biological parents, brain activity in male children of alcoholics displays abnormal pattern very early, and it is progressive. The progressive part is key to separating it from things like temper problems. If temper issues were like alcoholism, we would expect the problem to become worse and worse until the chance of someone dying was very high. It happens but the dire ending is much more predictable in alcoholics. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2007, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/85 "2007-02-03T02:32:03Z")
Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Deaf\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3be4f8/32.png) [@Deaf\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deaf_Geek)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2007, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/86 "2007-02-03T02:38:57Z")
I would say that alchoholism is a disorder. Itā€™s reconized in the DSMV. Itā€™s not a disease, or a disablity. Question is, is it the substance that causes the probelms or more the fact that a particualr personality type tends to be attracted to alchol? ---
**Author:** ![tashabot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tashabot/32/6250_2.png) [@tashabot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tashabot)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2007, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/87 "2007-02-03T03:40:19Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Another viewpoint is that once you stop drinking, your normal way of dealing with people returns. There is nothing directly linking moral deficiencies to alcohol that wonā€™t clear up once the alcohol is removed from the equation. [/QUOTE] I know this has been moved from IMHO, but I am going to have to politely disagree. I am not going to find a cite right now because sorting through Google will take a while and I have to run out for a few, but google something like ā€œemotional maturityā€ and ā€œdrug addiction,ā€ or something similar, and youā€™ll find hundreds of studies that have been done on drug addicts, recovering and otherwise, that shows evidence that the moment a person starts abusing a drug, their emotional aging, as it were, stops or slows significantly. If someone becomes an addict at the age of 15, and get clean at the age of 50, they will still act a lot like a teenager. Anecdotal evidence at best, but both my father and my boyfriend, who are in recovery, had to go through with this when they got clean. Itā€™s hard - when you spend your entire life burying your problems in drugs or alcohol instead of dealing with them, you arenā€™t really, you know, maturing. Obviously, this is not a set in stone rule, but because of my father Iā€™ve dealt with a lot of addicts in my time, practicing and recovering, and anecdotally Iā€™d say well over half of them still hadnā€™t grown the hell up. ~Tasha ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2007, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/88 "2007-02-03T08:16:04Z")
[QUOTE=tashabot] I know this has been moved from IMHO, but I am going to have to politely disagree. I am not going to find a cite right now because sorting through Google will take a while and I have to run out for a few, but google something like ā€œemotional maturityā€ and ā€œdrug addiction,ā€ or something similar, and youā€™ll find hundreds of studies that have been done on drug addicts, recovering and otherwise, that shows evidence that the moment a person starts abusing a drug, their emotional aging, as it were, stops or slows significantly. If someone becomes an addict at the age of 15, and get clean at the age of 50, they will still act a lot like a teenager. Anecdotal evidence at best, but both my father and my boyfriend, who are in recovery, had to go through with this when they got clean. Itā€™s hard - when you spend your entire life burying your problems in drugs or alcohol instead of dealing with them, you arenā€™t really, you know, maturing. Obviously, this is not a set in stone rule, but because of my father Iā€™ve dealt with a lot of addicts in my time, practicing and recovering, and anecdotally Iā€™d say well over half of them still hadnā€™t grown the hell up. ~Tasha [/QUOTE] Thanks for brining this up. I wanted to reply to \*_Kalhoun \*\* earlier but I had a date šŸ™‚ . Emotional maturity is one issue that concerns alcoholics but there are other factors that appear to be genetic. [This](http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/2002/G/2002154.html) is a link to a cite that states that children of alcoholics (being a child of an alcoholic greatly increases the chances that you will become an alcoholic even if the child does not know the alcoholic parent_) tend to exhibit problems like attention deficit disorder and poor impulse control. It also indicates that children of alcoholics have a weakened startle response than children of non-alcoholics. Now, this could be because the children were raised around alcoholics except there are studies showing that adopted children of alcoholics have almost a 5 fold greater chance of becoming an alcoholic than children of non-alcoholics and exhibit the same traits. It appears from the studies done that for many alcoholics quitting drinking does not put them back to normal because they were never normal to begin with. That is where a program like A.A can help. Slee - [This](http://encyclopedia.adoption.com/entry/alcohol-abuse-and-adopted-persons/35/1.html) is the study I am referencing. There have been other studies as weel. > [@](#): > > In the study, 160 male adoptees, their biological relatives, and their adoptive families were analyzed regarding alcohol problems, antisocial behavior, and other psychological variables. The study found that a genetic influence, such as alcohol problems in first-degree (i.e., parents) or second-degree (i.e., grandparents) biological relatives, increased an adopteeā€™s risk for alcohol problems 4.6-fold. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2007, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/89 "2007-02-03T11:16:22Z")
[QUOTE=sleestak] Thanks for brining this up. I wanted to reply to \*_Kalhoun \*\* earlier but I had a date šŸ™‚ . Emotional maturity is one issue that concerns alcoholics but there are other factors that appear to be genetic. [This](http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/2002/G/2002154.html) is a link to a cite that states that children of alcoholics (being a child of an alcoholic greatly increases the chances that you will become an alcoholic even if the child does not know the alcoholic parent_) tend to exhibit problems like attention deficit disorder and poor impulse control. It also indicates that children of alcoholics have a weakened startle response than children of non-alcoholics. Now, this could be because the children were raised around alcoholics except there are studies showing that adopted children of alcoholics have almost a 5 fold greater chance of becoming an alcoholic than children of non-alcoholics and exhibit the same traits. It appears from the studies done that for many alcoholics quitting drinking does not put them back to normal because they were never normal to begin with. That is where a program like A.A can help. Slee - [This](http://encyclopedia.adoption.com/entry/alcohol-abuse-and-adopted-persons/35/1.html) is the study I am referencing. There have been other studies as weel. [/QUOTE] Well Iā€™ll call bullshit right there until you can show me where anyone at AA is a qualified psychologist/psychiatrist who is actively treating patients for their genetic issues. Youā€™re trying to lump the drunks at AA in with trained professionals and I ainā€™t buying it. And Iā€™ll add that I agree that alcoholics who start very young (like my SIL) may have stunted emotional growth. I know she certainly did. But that doesnā€™t explain all the drunks who function in the world and make sound, mature decisions all the time. There out there and they number in the millions. Your sweeping generalization is inaccurate. AA is a bunch of drunks who may or may not be using who want to hang out with drunks who may or may not be using. Attaching clinical benefit to that is dangerous and misleading. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2007, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/90 "2007-02-03T11:17:32Z")
In my opinion ā€˜alcoholismā€™ and ā€˜stressā€™ have much in common. Both are caused by something else, and both bring on other physical, social and mental problems. Personally I think that it is counter productive to call either a ā€˜diseaseā€™, they are symptoms and treating symptoms but not the cause is just plain dumb. It is also an easy cop out. As it happens, my rather foolish doctor believes that I am an alcoholic, actually I drink heavily and in private, to counteract a long term pain in my jaw. A friend of mine had a major pain in the groin, he drank heavily. After years and a marriage breakdown a cortizone injection cured him. He remarried, all was fine, the pain came back and he was back on the vodka. He is now dead. I know an extremely nice woman who is a pillar of the UK AA. When she and her husband were young he self-made an enormous amount of money. They had no need to work, were extremely wealthy, and mixed with a rackety international crowd. From environment and I suspect boredom, possibly also a lack of self worth, she became alcoholic - nowadays she would have been on cocaine. I have my suspicions of what was really wrong with her. The AA worked for her - I think it gave her life a meaning - looking after other people. A doctor I know was in her first job, she found herself downing a bottle of sherry each evening (enough to knock her out). She reported herself, Iā€™m not sure of the details. In her case it was simply that she was deeply unhappy. Twenty five later she is just fine, no problem drinking, but she was dry for a long time. Another couple of guys home and work lives fell apart. They took to the bottle, both are dead - note alcohol did not cause their problems. I knew a feisty woman who got her hands on a lot of money, she ran through it and at a certain stage drank very heavily. Her personality changed. She became epileptic, eventually homeless and got dried out. One day she just died. At the autopsy they found that she had a massive ā€˜benignā€™ tumour in her brain. A known and easily diagnosable cause of epilepsy - pity nobody bothered to look further than her drinking habits. Calling alcoholism a disease is like calling flatulence a disease. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2007, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/91 "2007-02-03T12:30:13Z")
[QUOTE=Charger] Yeah, you want them to deal with the problem, not sit you down and say, ā€œitā€™s okay, none of this is your fault, donā€™t blame yourself.ā€ [/QUOTE] Iā€™ve lately been kicking around the idea that support groups in general get a bad rap in some quarters just because of how their purpose is described. For whatever reason, people think of these things as hug-fests where you go to feel good about yourself and ā€˜let the healing beginā€™ or some such clichĆ©. That makes it a lot easier for people who donā€™t know what theyā€™re talking about to assume that AA and other groups are about passing the buck. Iā€™ve never been in recovery myself, but Iā€™ve heard _lots_ of first-hand stories. I can assure you that the dominant theme in addiction therapy is _not_ ā€œnone of this is your fault, donā€™t blame yourself.ā€ The theme is much closer to: ā€œBoy, you sure fucked up. Not too late, though ā€“ you wanna fix this, or what?ā€ Anyway, getting back to my point, I think these kinds of support groups would be better served if they emphasized their obvious practicality. For example, when I recently decided to make a concerted effort to lose weight, I made sure to mention it to lots of friends and family. I didnā€™t do this for some vague feeling of moral support, and I certainly didnā€™t do it because I wanted to hear that I wasnā€™t responsible for my health. I did it because itā€™s a lot harder to give up on the project if I know Iā€™m going to have to answer questions about how Iā€™m doing. Like everyone else on the planet, I care what other people think about me; giving up reflects poorly on a person, and admiting failure to others is unpleasant. Involving others in your recovery, if nothing else, give you an additional incentive to succeed. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2007, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/92 "2007-02-03T14:10:35Z")
[QUOTE=VarlosZ] For example, when I recently decided to make a concerted effort to lose weight, I made sure to mention it to lots of friends and family [/QUOTE] Ok - so why did you become a fat slob in the first place ? A genuine question. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2007, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/93 "2007-02-03T14:21:32Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] Ok - so why did you become a fat slob in the first place ? A genuine question. [/QUOTE] Jeeeezā€¦where did THAT come from? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2007, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/94 "2007-02-03T14:25:47Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Well Iā€™ll call bullshit right there until you can show me where anyone at AA is a qualified psychologist/psychiatrist who is actively treating patients for their genetic issues. Youā€™re trying to lump the drunks at AA in with trained professionals and I ainā€™t buying it. And Iā€™ll add that I agree that alcoholics who start very young (like my SIL) may have stunted emotional growth. I know she certainly did. But that doesnā€™t explain all the drunks who function in the world and make sound, mature decisions all the time. There out there and they number in the millions. Your sweeping generalization is inaccurate. AA is a bunch of drunks who may or may not be using who want to hang out with drunks who may or may not be using. Attaching clinical benefit to that is dangerous and misleading. [/QUOTE] Iā€™ll thank you not to make such broad statements about a program with such little evidence. AA has helped more than a few members of my family, and probably saved the life of one of my aunts, thank you very much. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2007, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/95 "2007-02-03T14:30:21Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Iā€™ll thank you not to make such broad statements about a program with such little evidence. AA has helped more than a few members of my family, and probably saved the life of one of my aunts, thank you very much. :dubious: [/QUOTE] Well, the program didnā€™t do shit for most of my relatives who were in it and one of them is dead due to alcoholism. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2007, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/96 "2007-02-03T15:08:51Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] AA is a bunch of drunks who may or may not be using who want to hang out with drunks who may or may not be using. Attaching clinical benefit to that is dangerous and misleading. [/QUOTE] And yet many many clinicians - psychiatrists, psychologists, general practioners, recommend AA as part of a recovery effort. I think those that recommend it as the only recovery technique are abdicting their responsibility, but it is highly recommended as part of a recovery effort. If you go to Hazelden or The Meadows or Betty Ford, they will start you on your 12 steps as part of their program. And on leaving, if you donā€™t choose aftercare, you will (should) be given the meeting places and times of a local AA group and possibily even set up with a sponsor. So the clinicians seem to think it has clinical benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Joe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Evil\_Joe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Joe)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2007, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/97 "2007-02-03T15:16:52Z")
How did this get twisted into an AA discussion again? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Joe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Evil\_Joe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Joe)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2007, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/98 "2007-02-03T15:24:01Z")
[QUOTE=Dangerosa] And yet many many clinicians - psychiatrists, psychologists, general practioners, recommend AA as part of a recovery effort. I think those that recommend it as the only recovery technique are abdicting their responsibility, but it is highly recommended as part of a recovery effort. If you go to Hazelden or The Meadows or Betty Ford, they will start you on your 12 steps as part of their program. And on leaving, if you donā€™t choose aftercare, you will (should) be given the meeting places and times of a local AA group and possibily even set up with a sponsor. So the clinicians seem to think it has clinical benefit. [/QUOTE] And yet it doesnā€™t work. Its like a Hail Mary pass. We as professionals know its most likely not going to work but whats the harm in a try? Tell this poor sick suffering person that supernatural intervention will help them instead of using real behavioral understanding. Its disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2007, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/99 "2007-02-03T15:45:47Z")
[QUOTE=Dangerosa] And yet many many clinicians - psychiatrists, psychologists, general practioners, recommend AA as part of a recovery effort. I think those that recommend it as the only recovery technique are abdicting their responsibility, but it is highly recommended as part of a recovery effort. If you go to Hazelden or The Meadows or Betty Ford, they will start you on your 12 steps as part of their program. And on leaving, if you donā€™t choose aftercare, you will (should) be given the meeting places and times of a local AA group and possibily even set up with a sponsor. So the clinicians seem to think it has clinical benefit. [/QUOTE] I suppose I could buy that talk therapy in a controlled environment, with professionals, could be beneficial. But the way itā€™s presented as an independent AA-style meeting, I see no value to it as a blanket, generalized ā€œtherapy.ā€ Thereā€™s no formal agenda, no supervision, and no formula to it. Meeting new people with like interests (i.e., sobriety) will certainly open doors to learning new habits that will promote that sobriety, but itā€™s certainly not something you can only get at a meeting. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2007, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551/100 "2007-02-03T16:02:11Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] Ok - so why did you become a fat slob in the first place ? A genuine question. [/QUOTE] Huh? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-alcoholism-really-a-disease/390551.md?page=6)