# Is all matter driven by/made of consciousness? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 1, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092 "2014-04-01T15:59:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![nole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@nole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nole)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/1 "2014-04-01T15:59:32Z")
“As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.” - Max Planck I realize there is very little hard evidence to prove what consciousness is or how it works, but I must admit I am a fan of this view of the universe. It is quite poetic & beautiful, and for selfish reasons (I am a writer), it works for me. Consciousness lies in an odd middle ground between science & the supernatural. Is consciousness tangible? Does it only exist inside our heads, or is everything “made” of it like Amit Goswani would have us believe? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/2 "2014-04-01T16:08:40Z")
Yeah well, dead people don’t pass through their coffins when they’re left alone at night. Planck begs the question by attributing the stability of the atom to an unknown force which he then calls intelligence. My guess is that he’s making a statement around an universal intelligence and not an individual intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![nole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@nole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nole)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/3 "2014-04-01T16:17:04Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Yeah well, dead people don’t pass through their coffins when they’re left alone at night. > > Planck begs the question by attributing the stability of the atom to an unknown force which he then calls intelligence. My guess is that he’s making a statement around an universal intelligence and not an individual intelligence. I’m not sure what inspired the first part of your comment, that wasn’t implied by anything I wrote. I wanted to gear this more towards a “universal consciousness” and whether or not it exists. I like to think of it as a giant field from which we branch off and are then confined to our allocated amount of consciousness or intelligence. In this scenario our bodies would simply be vessels tuned into it. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/4 "2014-04-01T16:22:13Z")
Sounds like he’s trying to say that matter (and by extension the Universe) only exist through the conscious mind of a creator - God. ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/5 "2014-04-01T16:26:14Z")
> [@](#): > > We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. Better arguments have been made for this along the lines of intelligent design, but none of them are very convincing. The statement “For any universe that belongs to the class of complex universes, that universe also belongs to the class of universes designed by an intelligent creator.” Has no basis unless a host of assumptions are made that themselves have no basis. They may be true nonetheless, but there is no reason to opt for those assumptions over another more basic story: that the observer happens to be in a complex universe. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/6 "2014-04-01T16:27:54Z")
-shrug- I read you piece " realize there is very little hard evidence to prove what consciousness is or how it works" to be linked to an individual conciousness. I mean there’s at least the ghost of an argument there - _I_ at least am concious. Attributing consciousness to the universe seems a step too far. ---
**Author:** ![nole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@nole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nole)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/7 "2014-04-01T16:29:08Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Sounds like he’s trying to say that matter (and by extension the Universe) only exist through the conscious mind of a creator - God. That is one way to look at it. Though I don’t believe in man made religion, I do like the thought of a God that frankly I find impossible to explain. A “universal consciousness” though a very vague term, is the most logical explanation of “God” in my mind. I know that God & religion are touchy subjects around here, and for the record I don’t believe that “God” sets rules or morality standards nor does it need to be worshiped. These are purely human concepts. ---
**Author:** ![nole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@nole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nole)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/8 "2014-04-01T16:31:45Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > -shrug- > > I read you piece " realize there is very little hard evidence to prove what consciousness is or how it works" to be linked to an individual conciousness. I mean there’s at least the ghost of an argument there - _I_ at least am concious. Attributing consciousness to the universe seems a step too far. It is certainly reaching, however there are much less worthwhile things to spend your thoughts on. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/9 "2014-04-01T16:36:45Z")
I’m pretty sure modern physics has discovered the forces that hold the atom together since Planck’s day. I never took physics in college, but I’ll bet it’s more like an electrical force, and less like the Baby Jesus’s tears. ---
**Author:** ![nole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@nole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nole)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/10 "2014-04-01T16:40:18Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > I’m pretty sure modern physics has discovered the forces that hold the atom together since Planck’s day. I never took physics in college, but I’ll bet it’s more like an electrical force, and less like the Baby Jesus’s tears. Save your energy for religious threads dude, no need for your crusade here. None of this pertains to Jesus. The question is consciousness. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/11 "2014-04-01T16:48:16Z")
> [@nole](#): > > That is one way to look at it. Though I don’t believe in man made religion, I do like the thought of a God that frankly I find impossible to explain. A “universal consciousness” though a very vague term, is the most logical explanation of “God” in my mind. I know that God & religion are touchy subjects around here, and for the record I don’t believe that “God” sets rules or morality standards nor does it need to be worshiped. These are purely human concepts. As opposed to a vague term that seems to exist only because you seem to like the idea? Why not simply go with fields interacting with each other according to consistent rules? Why then go and posit a further complexity of a consciousness exerting some sort of authenticity to those fields interacting? What evidence, other than personal comfort, could you present to justify adding that complexity? ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/12 "2014-04-01T16:48:21Z")
Yeah but it did give me a laugh. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/13 "2014-04-01T16:48:45Z")
> [@nole](#): > > Save your energy for religious threads dude, no need for your crusade here. None of this pertains to Jesus. The question is consciousness. My apologies for the Jesus snark, that was uncalled for. But my point still stands about Planck’s quote. We _know_ what the force is. And it’s just a force. It’s no more like consciousness than gravity. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/14 "2014-04-01T16:49:47Z")
> [@nole](#): > > “As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.” - Max Planck “We must”? No, my dear Herr Planck, we must no such thing. ---
**Author:** ![nole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@nole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nole)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/15 "2014-04-01T17:01:55Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > As opposed to a vague term that seems to exist only because you seem to like the idea? Why not simply go with fields interacting with each other according to consistent rules? Why then go and posit a further complexity of a consciousness exerting some sort of authenticity to those fields interacting? What evidence, other than personal comfort, could you present to justify adding that complexity? I’m not qualified to present anything as fact. I’m merely bringing up a subject that I find interesting. Do you not consider the origin & nature of consciousness to be a valid scientific question? If not, then fair enough. I don’t think it is out of the question that there are laws which it follows. To the best of my knowledge consciousness on a grand scale has not been disproven, the experiments I’ve learned about add fuel to the fire that it could exist but in no way give conclusive evidence one way or another. The research being done in Princeton under the name of the “Global Consciousness Project” is quite intriguing. ---
**Author:** ![nole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@nole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nole)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/16 "2014-04-01T17:07:00Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > My apologies for the Jesus snark, that was uncalled for. > > But my point still stands about Planck’s quote. We _know_ what the force is. And it’s just a force. It’s no more like consciousness than gravity. No worries brother. Do we conclusively & without a doubt _know_ what this force is? There are still huge chunks of the nature of reality that science has yet to understand, not that it won’t, I am fully confident that with a long enough timeline it will, but it isn’t all there yet. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/17 "2014-04-01T17:13:01Z")
> [@nole](#): > > I’m not qualified to present anything as fact. I’m merely bringing up a subject that I find interesting. Do you not consider the origin & nature of consciousness to be a valid scientific question? If not, then fair enough. I don’t think it is out of the question that there are laws which it follows. To the best of my knowledge consciousness on a grand scale has not been disproven, the experiments I’ve learned about add fuel to the fire that it could exist but in no way give conclusive evidence one way or another. The research being done in Princeton under the name of the “Global Consciousness Project” is quite intriguing. You seem to keep conflating individual consciousness with universal consciousness. If you’re a materialist, then sure the individual ability to be aware of external objects and internal mental states is a testable subject. As to a universal consciousness, I’d appreciate some of those experiments you mention but understand the burden of proof that the universe is conscious is on the presenter of the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/18 "2014-04-01T17:21:29Z")
> [@nole](#): > > No worries brother. Do we conclusively & without a doubt _know_ what this force is? There are still huge chunks of the nature of reality that science has yet to understand, not that it won’t, I am fully confident that with a long enough timeline it will, but it isn’t all there yet. Well, whatever it is, it was working before humans came along and I see no reason that it won’t continue to work after humans go extinct, so it’s definitely not _human_ consciousness that’s holding everything together. If you want to speculate without evidence or definition about some form of non-human consciousness, knock yourself out. Give it whatever attributes you like. I heard it likes bowling. ---
**Author:** ![nole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@nole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nole)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/19 "2014-04-01T17:25:51Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > You seem to keep conflating individual consciousness with universal consciousness. > > If you’re a materialist, then sure the individual ability to be aware of external objects and internal mental states is a testable subject. > > As to a universal consciousness, I’d appreciate some of those experiments you mention but understand the burden of proof that the universe is conscious is on the presenter of the idea. I can’t prove it, nor can anyone else up to this point. But if a universal consciousness were to exist, would it differ from individual consciousness in anything other than scale? ---
**Author:** ![nole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@nole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nole)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/20 "2014-04-01T17:30:37Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, whatever it is, it was working before humans came along and I see no reason that it won’t continue to work after humans go extinct, so it’s definitely not _human_ consciousness that’s holding everything together. If you want to speculate without evidence or definition about some form of non-human consciousness, knock yourself out. Give it whatever attributes you like. I heard it likes bowling. If I had to speculate I would say it’s the same thing (universal/human consciousness). We only branch out from a much larger field of it just like any other intelligent life form on any other planet would. I prefer football, hopefully the universe decides to draft a couple decent offensive linemen for my dolphins this year. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092.md?page=2)