# Is all matter driven by/made of consciousness? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 1, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092 "2014-04-01T15:59:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![nole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@nole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nole)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/41 "2014-04-01T21:00:56Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Let’s assume the universe is conscious. > > Now let’s assume it’s not conscious. > > What difference should we expect to see? Good question, if everyone here could manage to get off their high horse & be open to discussing an interesting topic it might even make for a great discussion but, alas, this is not the case If we were to look at consciousness as only existing only in our minds then there is no difference because the universe in that situation is not conscious. If you’d like to look at consciousness as one thing that is experienced at different scales then the interesting question is how it affects the potential of the human mind. For example, is telepathy then possible? Can thoughts then be transported through a field? Would we be better at predicting results & future occurrences? I’ll look up & post a few different experiments later when I’m home. ---
**Author:** ![nole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@nole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nole)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/42 "2014-04-01T21:04:48Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > The issue here is that generally, when people are trying to figure out the nature of existence and that sort of thing, we’re interested in actual answers - that is, we’d like to know that our explanation bears some sort of resemblance to reality. This is what we call “science”. The only way to know this is to check our ideas out against reality - experiment, observation, evidence, proof - you know, the scientific method. > > Now, if someone just wants to shoot the shit and moon about, wondering about the whichness of the why and generally mentally meandering like a teenager on weed, that’s fine. But it’s not science. That’s what we call “philosophy”. It’d be nice if the thread made it clear which one you’re doing. To me, and it seems, to most of the readers, it sounded like you were wanting to do science, but now you’re saying you’re actually more interested in the other. Which is it? I’m not a scientist, I apologize if I implied I had any concrete knowledge or evidence with regard to the subject because I do not. ---
**Author:** ![nole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@nole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nole)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/43 "2014-04-01T21:08:31Z")
> [@Gamecockadam](#): > > A similar concept called “Biocentrism” has been proposed by Robert Lanza. His book is fascinating. The basic premise is that life does not arise out of the material world. The material world arises out of life. Very Zen. > > [Biocentrism - Robert Lanza, MD](http://www.robertlanza.com/biocentrism-how-life-and-consciousness-are-the-keys-to-understanding-the-true-nature-of-the-universe/) I haven’t read the book though I am aware of who Robert Lanza is. I suppose this one is right up my alley, I’ll give it a read. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/44 "2014-04-01T21:19:09Z")
> [@nole](#): > > Good question, if everyone here could manage to get off their high horse & be open to discussing an interesting topic it might even make for a great discussion but, alas, this is not the case You claim you’re being inviting but you’re really just being antagonistic with crap like this. > [@](#): > > If we were to look at consciousness as only existing only in our minds then there is no difference because the universe in that situation is not conscious. If you’d like to look at consciousness as one thing that is experienced at different scales then the interesting question is how it affects the potential of the human mind. For example, is telepathy then possible? Can thoughts then be transported through a field? Would we be better at predicting results & future occurrences? We’re getting better at all those things (or at least are gaining a better understanding of how they might be achieved) because of applied science, not just how we “look at consciousness.” ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/45 "2014-04-01T22:13:54Z")
My mind is conscious but can’t directly create matter. Seems like we’ve got a great many examples of where it isn’t true that mind creates matter - so why is it an attractive hypothesis that matter is created by mind? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/46 "2014-04-01T22:24:43Z")
> [@nole](#): > > Do you not consider the origin & nature of consciousness to be a valid scientific question? It is; but the relevant science is biology, not physics. ---
**Author:** ![nole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@nole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nole)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/47 "2014-04-01T23:06:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It is; but the relevant science is biology, not physics. It may very well be, but I’m not sure you can state that as fact. ---
**Author:** ![nole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@nole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nole)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/48 "2014-04-01T23:10:24Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > My mind is conscious but can’t directly create matter. Seems like we’ve got a great many examples of where it isn’t true that mind creates matter - so why is it an attractive hypothesis that matter is created by mind? The consciousness of the universe, if it exists, would function on a much larger scale far beyond what we can “tap into” so to speak. If you & I could create matter then things would be a bit chaotic, don’t you think? It probably wouldn’t bode well for any species, evolutionarily speaking, to hold that kind of power. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/49 "2014-04-01T23:46:39Z")
Again, I’m not sure extrapolating from a semi defined consciousness (us, or at least me) to poorly defined consciousnesses (other animals)and finally out to an observable universe makes any sense. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/50 "2014-04-01T23:52:23Z")
> [@nole](#): > > If you & I could create matter then things would be a bit chaotic, don’t you think? Not even the Universe can create matter, that would violate Newton’s First Law. We’re basically stuck with what came into existence after the Big Bang, and even that’s being slowly eaten away by black holes which will one day consume everything that ever was. (Got about 10,000,000,000,000,000 years before that becomes a major problem, though.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/51 "2014-04-02T01:03:48Z")
> [@nole](#): > > It may very well be, but I’m not sure you can state that as fact. Put it this way, then: Scientists have searched for, and never found, some kind of “life force” or “chi” or “kundalini” or “elan vital” or “extra bit” that distinguishes living from nonliving matter. All that is detectable and distinguishes living matter is the complexity of its organization; and the present consensus – for lack of any evidence to the contrary – is that that alone is sufficient to account for life and therefore consciousness. For further discussion, see the RationalWiki page on [Non-materialist neuroscience.](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Non-materialist_neuroscience) > [@](#): > > **Non-materialist neuroscience** is one of the latest fronts in the war on science. The battle has been a long time coming and it is surprising it has taken so long to get going. Modern neuroscience is rapidly reducing much of human thought, emotion and behavior into component pieces of neuronal interactions. The combination of computational modeling and non-invasive imaging of living brains has allowed researchers to begin describing how complex thought emerges from the firing patterns of neurons. In a way, neuroscience is the death knell of dualism. When materialist causes become both necessary and sufficient to explain all of human thought then parsimony dictates that references to a soul or other supernatural entities can be tossed out. > > Non-materialist neuroscience is a reaction to these discoveries, a rallying cry for dualism. Like creationism and intelligent design this “new” neuroscience is a reactionary movement against science. Rather than a hypothesis that leads to predictions and experiments, it is simply a catalog of things modern neuroscience supposedly cannot yet explain. > > Unsurprisingly, the movement is spear-headed by intelligent design lackeys from the Discovery Institute and related affiliates. The primary proponents of the movement are Michael Egnor, a neurosurgeon and recent contributor to the Discovery Institute blog, Denyse O’Leary, a Canadian “journalist” who runs her own blog dedicated to non-materialist neuroscience and likes to copy and paste these entries over on William Dembski’s blog as well, and Mario Beauregard, the author with O’Leary of a recent book on the subject of non-materialist neuroscience: _The Spiritual Brain: A Neuroscientist’s Case for the Existence of the Soul._ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/52 "2014-04-02T01:12:02Z")
See also the article on [Vitalism.](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Vitalism) ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/53 "2014-04-02T01:24:28Z")
[Christof Koch](http://www.wired.com/2013/11/christof-koch-panpsychism-consciousness/) is the neuroscientist who is chief scientific officer of the Allen brain science institute, before that he was a professor at CalTech. He has written a bit about [integrated information theory](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_information_theory) which states consciousness arises as a natural phenomena when there is integrated information (whatever that means). That doesn’t imply matter is created by consciousness, it seems to imply (from what I can tell as an amateur) that consciousness is a natural phenomena that arises out of integrated systems. Koch postulates that even natural phenomena could be conscious in their own way. > **[A "Complex" Theory of Consciousness](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-theory-of-consciousness/)** > > Is complexity the secret to sentience, to a panpsychic view of consciousness? > [@](#): > > Indeed, Tononi’s IIT postulates that the amount of integrated information that an entity possesses corresponds to its level of consciousness. So our consciousness could be (probably is) quite rudimentary compared to what could exist if IIT is correct. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/54 "2014-04-02T01:39:52Z")
> [@nole](#): > > The consciousness of the universe, if it exists, would function on a much larger scale far beyond what we can “tap into” so to speak. If you & I could create matter then things would be a bit chaotic, don’t you think? It probably wouldn’t bode well for any species, evolutionarily speaking, to hold that kind of power. Of course it would, if that condition were simply part of the environment in which organisms evolved and to which they adapted. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/55 "2014-04-02T02:13:24Z")
> [@nole](#): > > You’re right, I am essentially saying “wouldn’t it be cool if…” Well… Wouldn’t it?? Stop being so sensitive people, jeez. With all due respect, **nole.,** you appear to be new to this particular forum of this board. Please be advised, that is not how you frame an issue for debate in GD; “wouldn’t it be cool if” is more of an IMHO thing. In GD, we state a position we’re ready to defend, we bring facts and cites and logic and ingenious arguments and bullshit arguments and the debates often get as **fierce** as is possible for rules-moderated and purely intellectual discourse. If you can’t run with the big dogs, stay on the porch! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/56 "2014-04-02T02:31:14Z")
> [@](#): > > **Is all matter driven by/made of consciousness?** All consciousness is made of matter, not the other way around. Consciousness is just the result of a particular pattern of activity in some types of structures made of matter, such as brains. > [@nole](#): > > But if a universal consciousness were to exist, would it differ from individual consciousness in anything other than scale? Even if a conscious entity on such a scale were to exist, it could never be a single thing; the universe is too large, and light speed too slow. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/57 "2014-04-02T02:35:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > All consciousness is made of matter, not the other way around. Actually, I’d say consciousness bears the same relationship to matter as software to hardware. Software depends on hardware but is not made of it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/58 "2014-04-02T02:43:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Actually, I’d say consciousness bears the same relationship to matter as software to hardware. Software depends on hardware but is not made of it. The relationship is a bit different however. For one, consciousness is an active state of a system, it requires the system it’s part of to be functioning in order to exist; software on the other hand is pure information, and is still software even if the system it’s running on is turned off or it’s written down onto a piece of paper. Also, matter is more basic than hardware; software isn’t made of hardware but it is made of matter, even if it’s just in the form of moving electrons. EDIT: Come to think of it you _could_ have software that isn’t made of matter, if it’s encoded into energy like a laser and transmitted somewhere. Still, it has to be made of _something._ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/59 "2014-04-02T03:27:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > ]EDIT: Come to think of it you _could_ have software that isn’t made of matter, if it’s encoded into energy like a laser and transmitted somewhere. Still, it has to be made of _something._ Likewise with consciousness, but it still wouldn’t be **made** of that something. Information depends on matter but is not made of matter. Buckminster Fuller used to do a trick with a silk rope and a hemp rope and a nylon rope spliced together and the whole thing tied in a loose knot and the knot run through all three segments – the same knot at every stage even though composed of different materials. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/60 "2014-04-02T07:13:52Z")
> [@nole](#): > > The consciousness of the universe, if it exists, would function on a much larger scale far beyond what we can “tap into” so to speak. If you & I could create matter then things would be a bit chaotic, don’t you think? It probably wouldn’t bode well for any species, evolutionarily speaking, to hold that kind of power. I think this explanation falls into the category ‘making shit up’. Why would it ‘function on a much larger scale far beyond what we can “tap into” so to speak’, other than the fact that this answer rescues your argument from criticism? If your argument is made unassailable by just whipping out any old arbitrary explanation/exception to each and every challenge, it’s a worthless argument. If you’re wrong, and matter\* isn’t\* made from consciousness, how could we find that out? - that’s the question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092.md?page=4)