# Is all matter driven by/made of consciousness? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 1, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092 "2014-04-01T15:59:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/61 "2014-04-02T07:45:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Likewise with consciousness, but it still wouldn’t be **made** of that something. Information depends on matter but is not made of matter. Consciousness isn’t just information, though. And anyway, I disagree that information isn’t matter - all information only exists once encoded, there’s no true abstract realm where information exists independent of its medium or the conscious perception of it. That’s a convenient visualization, but it isn’t the truth of it. IMO, of course. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/62 "2014-04-02T08:46:03Z")
Without a single shred of evidence that consciousness extends past the individual these mind games are just a waste of time. Consciousness may be a side effect evolutionary principles and natural selection. It may be for survival and not about emotionality or some undetectable connection to an unknown unobservable higher state. The ability to respond with an appropriate emotion to another’s mental state is critical to social animals and especially those with young which must be raised and protected for an extended period of time. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/63 "2014-04-02T08:49:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Likewise with consciousness, but it still wouldn’t be **made** of that something. Information depends on matter but is not made of matter. Buckminster Fuller used to do a trick with a silk rope and a hemp rope and a nylon rope spliced together and the whole thing tied in a loose knot and the knot run through all three segments – the same knot at every stage even though composed of different materials. Did Buckminster Fuller debunk the current understanding of the electrochemical processes of the brain, or find some way to detect that there was some function that was not electrochemical within that organ? If not…we are in the realm of the celestial teapot. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/64 "2014-04-02T11:18:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Likewise with consciousness, but it still wouldn’t be **made** of that something. Information depends on matter but is not made of matter. Buckminster Fuller used to do a trick with a silk rope and a hemp rope and a nylon rope spliced together and the whole thing tied in a loose knot and the knot run through all three segments – the same knot at every stage even though composed of different materials. That (I think) demonstrates that knots aren’t a thing in their own right - they are a possible way of arranging rope, but that possibility doesn’t have existence of its own. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/65 "2014-04-02T11:46:16Z")
The pattern of the information or the arrangement of the matter might be the underlying piece for consciousness (and software if you think about it). That would tie in somewhat with the earlier linkage to integrated information theory. But for a materialist, is a pattern mass/energy? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/66 "2014-04-02T13:52:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > All consciousness is made of matter, not the other way around. Consciousness is just the result of a particular pattern of activity in some types of structures made of matter, such as brains. > > Even if a conscious entity on such a scale were to exist, it could never be a single thing; the universe is too large, and light speed too slow. Too slow, huh? You calling our universe an idiot?! ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/67 "2014-04-02T14:14:35Z")
I, for one, find the topic of consciousness fascinating. Neuroscience will be able to offer us much needed clues to build artificial intelligence. And if there’s some sort of mother “universal consciousness” our brains branch off of, or “tune into”, then if we’re to build an artificial electronic brain, to achieve success, we’d have to find a way to tap into this “consciousness field”; of which we’ve detected nothing of the sort. Whether it be diffuse or a tightly focused channel our brains receive from the aether, there hasn’t been one iota of evidence for such a thing, unless it’s disguising itself in the form of a seemingly non-thinking force like EM. But even if that were the case, it’d have to be modulated specifically for every individual brain out there, otherwise consciousness might jump from brain to brain raising the question, is there really just _one_ consciousness? All signs point toward “no”. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/68 "2014-04-02T14:23:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And anyway, I disagree that information isn’t matter - all information only exists once encoded, there’s no true abstract realm where information exists independent of its medium or the conscious perception of it. What about the realm of mathematics? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/69 "2014-04-02T14:26:41Z")
Using a line from Timothy Leary “The mind is designed to design reality” Yes I do believe that matter, and our universe, is a thought process that has created it, and we also do likewise but on a smaller scale. Inside each one of us, inside our consciousness is a universe, as we grown the possibilities inside us grow for all that lies within. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/70 "2014-04-02T14:36:53Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Using a line from Timothy Leary “The mind is designed to design reality” > > Yes I do believe that matter, and our universe, is a thought process that has created it, and we also do likewise but on a smaller scale. Inside each one of us, inside our consciousness is a universe, as we grown the possibilities inside us grow for all that lies within. > [@Webster](#): > > **Universe** noun > > 1. The universe is the whole of all matter, energy, planets, galaxies and space. > > An example of universe is where everyone and everything exists. What definition of “universe” are _you_ using? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/71 "2014-04-02T14:56:17Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes I do believe that matter, and our universe, is a thought process that has created it, and we also do likewise but on a smaller scale. Of course you do. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/72 "2014-04-02T16:06:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What definition of “universe” are _you_ using? Contrast to Multiverse > **[Multiverse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse)** > > This is an accepted version of this page > > The multiverse is the hypothetical set of all universes.\[a\] Together, these universes are presumed to comprise everything that exists: the entirety of space, time, matter, energy, information, and the physical laws and constants that describe them. The different universes within the multiverse are called "parallel universes", "flat universes", "other universes", "alternate universes", "multiple universes", "plane universes", "parent and child universes"... Will quickly show the limitations and deficiencies of your definition ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/73 "2014-04-02T16:08:14Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Of course you do. Why would you doubt that? Would you expect anything differently from me? Would any sane person? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/74 "2014-04-02T16:27:28Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Why would you doubt that? Would you expect anything differently from me? Would any sane person? No, and that’s the way I like you. You’re like the anti- **Der Trihs.** The universe has to balance itself out some way. Or so it seems to think… ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/75 "2014-04-02T17:36:59Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Contrast to Multiverse > > [Multiverse - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse) > > Will quickly show the limitations and deficiencies of your definition I’ll defer to the expert(s) on this point. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/76 "2014-04-02T17:45:46Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > I’ll defer to the expert(s) on this point. 🆒 I highly recommend that 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/77 "2014-04-02T19:11:35Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The relationship is a bit different however. For one, consciousness is an active state of a system, it requires the system it’s part of to be functioning in order to exist; software on the other hand is pure information, and is still software even if the system it’s running on is turned off or it’s written down onto a piece of paper. Also, matter is more basic than hardware; software isn’t made of hardware but it is made of matter, even if it’s just in the form of moving electrons. > > EDIT: Come to think of it you _could_ have software that isn’t made of matter, if it’s encoded into energy like a laser and transmitted somewhere. Still, it has to be made of _something._ The term you are looking for is process - which is a program running on a computer. It depends on the hardware, it depends on the software, it depends on inputs, and it has a state. A program has variables defined and sometimes initialized - a process includes the state of those variables over time. And just like consciousness, if you turn off the computer the process vanishes. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/78 "2014-04-02T19:18:18Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Not even the Universe can create matter, that would violate Newton’s First Law. We’re basically stuck with what came into existence after the Big Bang, and even that’s being slowly eaten away by black holes which will one day consume everything that ever was. (Got about 10,000,000,000,000,000 years before that becomes a major problem, though.) I think you mean conservation of matter/energy. This isn’t covered by Newton’s laws. As far as I’ve read, black holes will not consume everything. There will be plenty of protons left to decay. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/79 "2014-04-02T19:21:18Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > There will be plenty of protons left to decay. Good luck doing anything with those, once entropy reaches maximum. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092/80 "2014-04-02T19:21:34Z")
> [@nole](#): > > Good question, if everyone here could manage to get off their high horse & be open to discussing an interesting topic it might even make for a great discussion but, alas, this is not the case > > If we were to look at consciousness as only existing only in our minds then there is no difference because the universe in that situation is not conscious. If you’d like to look at consciousness as one thing that is experienced at different scales then the interesting question is how it affects the potential of the human mind. For example, is telepathy then possible? Can thoughts then be transported through a field? Would we be better at predicting results & future occurrences? > > I’ll look up & post a few different experiments later when I’m home. Even if telepathy existed, which as far as we can tell it doesn’t, you could come up with lots of simpler explanations for it than a universal consciousness. For instance, being able to sense the electrical field generated by someone elses mind and interpret what you sense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-all-matter-driven-by-made-of-consciousness/685092.md?page=5)