# Is Amanda Palmer wrong to solicit volunteer musicians? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 16, 2012, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847 "2012-09-16T03:38:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847/41 "2012-09-17T19:59:49Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > I don’t see what the big deal is. If the musicians don’t want to play they won’t. If they do, why do you care? > > I’m honestly baffled as to why this is a controversy. It’s a controversy because the Musician’s Union wishes for it to be one. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847/42 "2012-09-17T20:40:21Z")
There are probably people who would _pay_ money to play with the band. I don’t know this artist, or if she’s famous enough for that, but you can certainly imagine that there are plenty of musicians who could auction off a spot playing backup whatever at a concert for many thousands of dollars. It seems odd to me that it would be ok to charge someone money to do something, and it would be ok to pay them money to do the same thing, but it’s somehow not ok to let them do that thing with no money exchanging hands. I can see why such a thing might be against minimum wage laws, but I can’t figure out how it could be morally unjust. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847/43 "2012-09-17T21:33:55Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > They will have something they can put on their resume or CV, and someone will very probably put a video up on YouTube. “I worked with Amanda Palmer” has some value in the right circles. Would it have value? I don’t have a job as a professional musician, or as anything else in the music industry, so it’s hard for me to judge what sounds good for a resume or not. I could see that “I toured with Amanda Palmer” or “I played horn on five songs on Amanda Palmer’s latest album” would look good on a resume. Or if it was a big concert at Madison Square Garden that required a lot of rehearsing and and the horn players had complicated parts to play, then that seems like it would look impressive and have value. But it sounds like the volunteer musicians are just playing along with easy parts that they learn just right before the show. It sounds like it would be fun, and a cool story to tell your friends at a bar, but at least to a non-professional like me it doesn’t sound like a valuable addition to your resume. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847/44 "2012-09-17T22:06:56Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > As for me, I didn’t have a problem until I realized that she misappropriated money from her fans. What happens to your opinion when you realize that this didn’t happen? ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847/45 "2012-09-17T22:18:06Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > Would it have value? I don’t have a job as a professional musician, or as anything else in the music industry, so it’s hard for me to judge what sounds good for a resume or not. I could see that “I toured with Amanda Palmer” or “I played horn on five songs on Amanda Palmer’s latest album” would look good on a resume. Or if it was a big concert at Madison Square Garden that required a lot of rehearsing and and the horn players had complicated parts to play, then that seems like it would look impressive and have value. Probably more for city-level fame. There are tons of musicians in Chicago who are known to other Chicago musicians who will probably never be known other than in the region, and this could prove worthwhile for them. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847/46 "2012-09-17T23:22:09Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > If she was using volunteer horn players in some cities but paying for professional horn players in other cities, then that would bother me and I would want her to pay the volunteers as well. She is hiring professionals for certain more “important” gigs, like in New York. > [@](#): > > Does anyone know how Amanda Palmer is spending $1 million on her new project? Short of using a touring orchestra on all dates, how does a non-superstar act spend that much on an album and tour? [Here](http://www.amandapalmer.net/blog/where-all-this-kickstarter-money-is-going-by-amanda/)’s her breakdown of what she spent it on, and [here](http://www.electricalaudio.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=60267&p=1545867#p1545867)’s Steve Albini saying it’s bullshit. In his earlier post, he basically said that virtually every other band in history has somehow had the financial know-how to cobble together a tour without getting a million bucks up front. In begging for money, you’re admitting you’re less fiscally responsible that people such as GG Allin, who managed several traditionally financed tours. To reiterate: less responsible than GG Allin! ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847/47 "2012-09-17T23:51:56Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I know nothing about her except what I just read on wikipedia and what you’ve written here. It seems clear that she has no problem asking others to give their talent away for free; does she ever do the same? [Yes.](http://www.amandapalmer.net/shop/pay-what-you-want/) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847/48 "2012-09-18T04:10:43Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > Probably more for city-level fame. There are tons of musicians in Chicago who are known to other Chicago musicians who will probably never be known other than in the region, and this could prove worthwhile for them. That makes sense. It shouldn’t be the main reason musicians volunteer for it, since it wouldn’t be a lot of exposure, but it’s still some. > [@GreasyJack](#): > > She is hiring professionals for certain more “important” gigs, like in New York. Oh, I’m not sure how I feel about it then. I guess if the musicians in the non-important cities are okay with it I won’t get too indignant on their behalves, but that doesn’t seem cool to me. > [@GreasyJack](#): > > In begging for money, you’re admitting you’re less fiscally responsible that people such as GG Allin, who managed several traditionally financed tours. To reiterate: less responsible than GG Allin! Ha, that’s a good way to put it. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847/49 "2012-09-18T05:14:31Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > [Here](http://www.amandapalmer.net/blog/where-all-this-kickstarter-money-is-going-by-amanda/)’s her breakdown of what she spent it on, and [here](http://www.electricalaudio.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=60267&p=1545867#p1545867)’s Steve Albini saying it’s bullshit. In his earlier post, he basically said that virtually every other band in history has somehow had the financial know-how to cobble together a tour without getting a million bucks up front. In begging for money, you’re admitting you’re less fiscally responsible that people such as GG Allin, who managed several traditionally financed tours. To reiterate: less responsible than GG Allin! Meh. She’s not funding a tour, she’s funding an album and a tour, with Kickstarter rewards to pay for on top of that. I’m not a music man, but nothing she wrote seemed all that out of line. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847/50 "2012-09-18T08:43:46Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > It’s a controversy because the Musician’s Union wishes for it to be one. Don’t those fossils realise Music with Rocks In _wants_ to be free? ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847/51 "2012-09-18T13:51:53Z")
> [@Sam\_A.Robrin](#): > > If she wants to make an offer, and other people want to accept it, it’s nobody’s business but the involved parties’. Strongly disagree. Every time a wide-eyed fan plays for free (or for “beers and hugs”), a professional musician who the lead act can damn well pay something for loses out on a paid gig. She should know better. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847/52 "2012-09-18T15:40:40Z")
Yeah, so what? Every time someone says to me “Hey, do you feel like going to this concert?” and I say “Eh, not really”, a professional musician loses out on a ticket-selling opportunity. Is that a moral failing on my part? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847/53 "2012-09-18T16:36:38Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Yeah, so what? Every time someone says to me “Hey, do you feel like going to this concert?” and I say “Eh, not really”, a professional musician loses out on a ticket-selling opportunity. Is that a moral failing on my part? I would like to nominate this post for the SDMB “Worst Analogy Attempt of 2012” award. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847/54 "2012-09-18T16:41:56Z")
> [@Misnomer](#): > > You have absolutely no right to define morality for anyone but yourself, and you certainly have _no right_ to police anyone else’s actions based on your definition. That statement is a load of crap and will not hold up to even the slightest scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847/55 "2012-09-18T17:15:26Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I would like to nominate this post for the SDMB “Worst Analogy Attempt of 2012” award. Go ahead, then, and spell out the difference and its significance. Yes, I do believe that if someone wants to provide services for free which another person would have provided for a fee, there is no moral failing in my using the first person’s charity rather than purchasing the services of the second person, even if I could afford it. No one owes them a gig ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847/56 "2012-09-18T17:25:44Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Strongly disagree. Every time a wide-eyed fan plays for free (or for “beers and hugs”), a professional musician who the lead act can damn well pay something for loses out on a paid gig. No they aren’t, because Palmer never wanted professional musicians in the first place. She specifically wants amateur fans. The whole point of the performance is that she’s inviting regular schmoes up on stage to jam with her, and that’s frankly awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847/57 "2012-09-19T03:52:51Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I would like to nominate this post for the SDMB “Worst Analogy Attempt of 2012” award. Let me offer a better one. An old friend of mine, a moderately successful comedienne and character actress, mounted a one woman show in LA and held a “contest” for people to design a flyer of it. No money was offered, just “exposure” and a couple of tickets to the show. Here was my reply: “I’m starting a new graphic arts firm and would like a bunch of comedians to submit five minute stand-up sets about how great my firm is. Sorry, I can’t pay, but I’d be happy to give the winner a cube of post-it notes with my logo on it!” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847/58 "2012-09-19T04:37:35Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Let me offer a better one. An old friend of mine, a moderately successful comedienne and character actress, mounted a one woman show in LA and held a “contest” for people to design a flyer of it. No money was offered, just “exposure” and a couple of tickets to the show. I’m a photographer by profession. This happens a lot with in my line of work, too. And you know what? I don’t give a shit. If there’s people out there willing to give their work away for free, have at it. You get what you pay for. I firmly believe that. And if you’re happy with amateur work, why should I care? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847/59 "2012-09-19T05:55:55Z")
> [@Monkey\_Chews](#): > > Huh? Of course she pocketed the money. Where else would it go? That’s the whole point of the crowd-funding exercise - raising as much money as possible to fund her career, by offering lots of different rewards of different value that hopefully brings you out ahead financially. And nothing wrong with that. > > It’s called an internship, and it’s a pretty standard model for getting to work with a highly sough-after company. Is it right? Well, I dunno. It’s how I got my job in the music industry, and although it didn’t thrill me to work for free for a while, I decided it was worth it. I ended up with a well paying, fulfilling job out of it, so for me it was the right path to take. Doesn’t always work that way of course, but it doesn’t make people wrong for offering them or for taking them up. So you won the internship lottery, but that doesn’t mean the internship lottery is not a bad game for MOST people who play it. The people at the top of MLM schemes all tend to do well, that doesn’t mean they don’t royally screw most who participate in them. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847/60 "2012-09-19T06:06:42Z")
> [@Misnomer](#): > > You have absolutely no right to define morality for anyone but yourself, and you certainly have _no right_ to police anyone else’s actions based on your definition. **Sam A. Robrin** has it right: the details of any arrangement are nobody’s business but the parties involved. Since when do I need your permission to develop my moral values, even those that demand interfering with others? I don’t need it. And will not ask for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-amanda-palmer-wrong-to-solicit-volunteer-musicians/634847.md?page=4)