# Is America actually the wealthiest nation on earth? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172 "2014-07-15T16:19:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172/21 "2014-07-15T18:39:18Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Virtually everything I have said is true from a factual standpoint. Except for your definitions. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172/22 "2014-07-15T18:48:53Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > You didn’t address my other, far more serious point. If courts were actually fair (and not simply designed to give lip service to the idea of fairness), high dollar attorneys would not be valuable, as the verdict would remain the same. Are you objecting to the price of the attorneys or the fact that they’re necessary at all? It would be nice to resolve disputes without too much formality, but over the past few hundred years we’ve designed a system that keeps civil order and generally works. Putting that responsibility on non-lawyers would require re-inventing the process every time. If it’s just a question of the cost of retaining a lawyer, then I would agree that’s sometimes a problem. I don’t have a solution in mind, but am open to suggestions. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172/23 "2014-07-15T18:54:22Z")
Reading the OP again, I’d basically say that there’s too many subjects to discuss. Each item brought up is independent from the others, with its own causes and reasons. They aren’t related to one another in any significant way. I’d suggest doing each as its own thread, or simply searching back for debates on those topics which have already been done. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172/24 "2014-07-15T19:09:11Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Are you objecting to the price of the attorneys or the fact that they’re necessary at all? It would be nice to resolve disputes without too much formality, but over the past few hundred years we’ve designed a system that keeps civil order and generally works. Putting that responsibility on non-lawyers would require re-inventing the process every time. If it’s just a question of the cost of retaining a lawyer, then I would agree that’s sometimes a problem. I don’t have a solution in mind, but am open to suggestions. Maybe Gerry Spence is just smoke and mirrors, but the attorney supposedly has never lost a jury trial. Some of his more famous cases were in no way a slam dunk for his side of the case. After I read his book (I know it’s well over 100 trials he has won), I realized : wait a second. If an ace attorney can manipulate people’s emotions to the extent that they vote for his side, then 1. That isn’t justice. At least some of those cases, the actual, factual evidence was in favor of the other side. 2. It creates a game of escalation. If I hire an attorney (who happens to be insanely expensive) can win me the case, the other party must hire an attorney of similar caliber or face defeat. This causes incredible price inflation for the services of the attorneys who have consistent winning records. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172/25 "2014-07-15T19:11:05Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Reading the OP again, I’d basically say that there’s too many subjects to discuss. Each item brought up is independent from the others, with its own causes and reasons. They aren’t related to one another in any significant way. The common thread is that all of them making America far less efficient as a society (than it otherwise could be). The reason America doesn’t have vacuum trains or robot plants making robots or a moon base or de facto biological immortality is probably not a lack of resources. (human and capital). It’s that the resources that could go into creating these things are squandered elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172/26 "2014-07-15T19:11:47Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Perhaps the word you are looking for is prosperous. I think he means “Standard of Living”. But he lost me in the first few sentences of the OP (emphasis added as underline): > [@](#): > > **The Medical system** - due to an unholy mix of 19th century capitalism and onerous government regulations, medical costs spiral out of control and yet provide minimal benefit. Minimal benefit? Total BS. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172/27 "2014-07-15T19:16:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Minimal benefit? Total BS. Perhaps I should have said no benefit. There’s a negative correlation between the rate of medical procedures being performed and longevity. Do you need references as to this commonly known fact? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172/28 "2014-07-15T19:18:58Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Perhaps I should have said no benefit. There’s a negative correlation between the rate of medical procedures being performed and longevity. Do you need references as to this commonly known fact? If you are talking only about end-of-life procedures, then that’s a different matter than what you posted in the OP. The way you worded it, you were referring to the entire system. To say the medical system in the US provides “minimal benefit” is total BS. To say it provides “no benefit” is just laughable. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172/29 "2014-07-15T19:19:19Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Well, I feel like my venting is at least educated enough to be debated over. Virtually everything I have said is true from a factual standpoint. Nope: > [@Habeed](#): > > A criminal defendant should not have to wait in jail 1-2 years before they have even a chance of being acquitted) And they don’t. Every state has a speedy trial requirement for criminal prosecutions, as does the federal government. Any person waiting for trial in jail that long is doing so because he has chosen, for presumably strategic reasons, to waive the speedy trial limits. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172/30 "2014-07-15T19:24:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If you are talking only about end-of-life procedures, then that’s a different matter than what you posted in the OP. The way you worded it, you were referring to the entire system. To say the medical system in the US provides “minimal benefit” is total BS. To say it provides “no benefit” is just laughable. I meant _marginal_ benefit. A government run system full of death panels and cheap hospitals and doctors is 1/3 of the cost, and statistically about the same. Those systems may persist in using outdated technology and have other drawbacks, but, as it turns out, they don’t do that much worse (and since they cover everyone, they come out ahead in the population statistics) ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172/31 "2014-07-15T19:25:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Nope: > And they don’t. > > Every state has a speedy trial requirement for criminal prosecutions, as does the federal government. Any person waiting for trial in jail that long is doing so because he has chosen, for presumably strategic reasons, to waive the speedy trial limits. Can you source this? I can think of a half dozen famous cases off of the top of my head where the limits didn’t mean anything. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172/32 "2014-07-15T19:28:43Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > I meant _marginal_ benefit. A government run system full of death panels and cheap hospitals and doctors is 1/3 of the cost, and statistically about the same. Those systems may persist in using outdated technology and have other drawbacks, but, as it turns out, they don’t do that much worse (and since they cover everyone, they come out ahead in the population statistics) Well, rich people can afford to waste money. The fact we waste money is not evidence that we are not rich. Although it’s not determinative, it’s more likely because we are rich than that we aren’t. So, despite your finally saying what you meant to say, it’s still doesn’t support your thesis. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172/33 "2014-07-15T19:36:13Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > You didn’t address my other, far more serious point. If courts were actually fair (and not simply designed to give lip service to the idea of fairness), high dollar attorneys would not be valuable, as the verdict would remain the same. Not necessarily. The fact that the legal system is open and legal decisions are not fixed by external factors means that there is a market for people who can operate the system well. If decisions were being settled by something like political favoritism, there wouldn’t be high-priced lawyers because people wouldn’t pay lawyers if the decisions were being made outside of the courtroom. But instead of paying lawyers, people would just have to pay off somebody else in a less visible manner. People with power, money, or influence are always going to have an advantage of people without those things. But our system at least puts it out in the open where it’s tempered by public opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172/34 "2014-07-15T19:44:22Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Can you source this? I can think of a half dozen famous cases off of the top of my head where the limits didn’t mean anything. So provide some citations for your cases. There are many benefits to the defense to not go straight to trial, and you have no idea whether the defense chose that route. The right to a speedy trial is pretty basic. Not to say there haven’t been abuses but it sounds like you don’t understand how the system works. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172/35 "2014-07-15T19:51:15Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Maybe Gerry Spence is just smoke and mirrors, but the attorney supposedly has never lost a jury trial. Some of his more famous cases were in no way a slam dunk for his side of the case. > > After I read his book (I know it’s well over 100 trials he has won), I realized : wait a second. If an ace attorney can manipulate people’s emotions to the extent that they vote for his side, then > > 1. That isn’t justice. At least some of those cases, the actual, factual evidence was in favor of the other side. > > 2. It creates a game of escalation. If I hire an attorney (who happens to be insanely expensive) can win me the case, the other party must hire an attorney of similar caliber or face defeat. This causes incredible price inflation for the services of the attorneys who have consistent winning records. Gerry Spence has lost trials. All trial lawyers have lost trials (unless they have tried very few). Spence is indeed a great lawyer, and has won cases that other lawyers may not have won. That does not mean " the actual, factual evidence was in favor of the other side.," nor that he “just manipulate[s] people’s emotions to the extent that they vote for his side.” Good lawyers win by being prepared, very well prepared. And being good at communicating their themes to a jury. Cases that end up in trial are, almost by definition, those that can “go either way.” A case that has evidence and law significantly favoring one party will be recognized as such by everyone and settled. Thus, good lawyering can make a difference in close cases. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172/36 "2014-07-15T19:55:33Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Can you source this? I can think of a half dozen famous cases off of the top of my head where the limits didn’t mean anything. > [@](#): > > 18 U.S. Code § 3161 - Time limits and exclusions > US Code > > (a) In any case involving a defendant charged with an offense, the appropriate judicial officer, at the earliest practicable time, shall, after consultation with the counsel for the defendant and the attorney for the Government, set the case for trial on a day certain, or list it for trial on a weekly or other short-term trial calendar at a place within the judicial district, so as to assure a speedy trial. > (b) Any information or indictment charging an individual with the commission of an offense shall be filed within thirty days from the date on which such individual was arrested or served with a summons in connection with such charges. If an individual has been charged with a felony in a district in which no grand jury has been in session during such thirty-day period, the period of time for filing of the indictment shall be extended an additional thirty days. > (c) > (1) In any case in which a plea of not guilty is entered, the trial of a defendant charged in an information or indictment with the commission of an offense shall commence within seventy days from the filing date (and making public) of the information or indictment, or from the date the defendant has appeared before a judicial officer of the court in which such charge is pending, whichever date last occurs. If a defendant consents in writing to be tried before a magistrate judge on a complaint, the trial shall commence within seventy days from the date of such consent. > (2) Unless the defendant consents in writing to the contrary, the trial shall not commence less than thirty days from the date on which the defendant first appears through counsel or expressly waives counsel and elects to proceed pro se. If you look at [section (h)](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3161), you’ll see the tolling triggers. As **Bricker** points out, state courts have similar provisions. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172/37 "2014-07-15T20:04:09Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > The common thread is that all of them making America far less efficient as a society (than it otherwise could be). > > The reason America doesn’t have vacuum trains or robot plants making robots or a moon base or de facto biological immortality is probably not a lack of resources. (human and capital). It’s that the resources that could go into creating these things are squandered elsewhere. So you’re saying that we’re not prosperous because: a) We’re wasting our extra money on things that we don’t have to. b) We’re NOT wasting our extra money on things that we don’t have to, but that YOU think we should. By definition, having extra money to splurge is pretty indicative of being prosperous. Putting money into cancer instead of life-extension probably has more to do with the order of feasibility. Fighting a disease is easier than modifying humanity to become a new, better-constructed device. Buying SUVs makes more sense than robots, because robot technology hasn’t advanced to the point of usefullness yet. We drive cars instead of ride trains, because the population density of most of the US isn’t great enough to make public transportation cost-effective. We have a lot of lawyers, because we believe that individuals should have the right to take anything they want to court, instead of having some upper-crust, educated WASP tell them that their case is stupid. We’re obese because we can afford it, and want to eat a lot. You’re complaining about choices which have been made by society which conflict with yours. Some of those might be because of finances, technology, popular tastes, etc. Some have good reasons behind them, others not so much. But at the end of the day, it’s a free market and a republican democracy. You can vote and you can vote with your wallet, but at the end of the day, the result is what everyone believes is the best path, not what you believe. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172/38 "2014-07-15T21:34:55Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Perhaps I should have said no benefit. There’s a negative correlation between the rate of medical procedures being performed and longevity. Do you need references as to this commonly known fact? As a clinician, I’m first to admit we kill people, and we kill some people we shouldn’t. I’m curious, though, why you think the US medical system is so lousy compared with others. Expensive? Yes. Lousy? No. Before you get too hasty citing things like infant mortality and longevity and the like, make sure you are comparing like with like and understand how medical statistics are derived. I’m not interested in hearing how a homogeneous population from a wealthy and developed country is longer-lived than our heterogeneous hodge podge, or how someone else has better infant mortality numbers if they don’t try to salvage sub-400 gram preemies or have an equal percentage of crack moms… ---
**Author:** ![sevenwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@sevenwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sevenwood)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172/39 "2014-07-15T21:45:41Z")
To respond to the question asked in the title of the OP: Google is your friend. I googled “per capita wealth by country” and found a number of sources. [This one](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita) claims that the USA is somewhere between sixth and tenth place, depending on who is doing the measuring. Qatar is pretty much in first place. I’m guessing that the oil might have something to do with that. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172/40 "2014-07-16T00:16:12Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > As a clinician, I’m first to admit we kill people, and we kill some people we shouldn’t. > > I’m curious, though, why you think the US medical system is so lousy compared with others. > > Expensive? Yes. Lousy? No. > > Before you get too hasty citing things like infant mortality and longevity and the like, make sure you are comparing like with like and understand how medical statistics are derived. > > I’m not interested in hearing how a homogeneous population from a wealthy and developed country is longer-lived than our heterogeneous hodge podge, or how someone else has better infant mortality numbers if they don’t try to salvage sub-400 gram preemies or have an equal percentage of crack moms… Well, there are a number of reasons why the US system can be characterized as “lousy”, if by “lousy” you mean “costs twice as much as the competitions, and delivers results in the lower 25 % of developed nations”. Which seems a servicable use of the word “lousy”. One is infant mortality. The United States is roughly 55 from the top, between Serbia and Poland. Yes, a lot of people spend a lot of lung volume on making up excuses here, but what they all have in common, is that they don’t understand how infant mortality is tailled. Another is maternal mortality. The US is number 48 from the top. And then there is lifespan. The US is number 42 from the top. Healthy life expectancy; number 24. Amendable mortality: The US consistently has one of the lowest perforamces in the developed world. Health Affairs January 2008 estimated that if the US pulled its performace up to matc the the average in developed countries 75,000 deaths could be avoided annually. And 100 000 if the US could match the three best nations. So the system consumes twice as much in terms of resources as other nations systems and delivers results that consistently go from below average to among the worst on public health measures. It seems entriely reasonable to characterize it as lousy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-actually-the-wealthiest-nation-on-earth/693172.md?page=3)