# Is America Becoming Like Rome? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 6, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-becoming-like-rome/509026 "2009-09-06T02:25:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-becoming-like-rome/509026/1 "2009-09-06T02:25:11Z")
Is the United States of America becoming like the Roman Republic circa during the Punic Wars? Is Pat Buchanan our Cicero warning us of an imperial future and of our heritage? I don’t think so but I’m wondering. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-becoming-like-rome/509026/2 "2009-09-06T02:36:29Z")
Perhaps to a certain extent. One can look around and easily spot some of the wealthiest and most powerful Americans sinking into decadence and self-absorption, without caring about upholding the principles that America was founded on. AIG and Citibank executives come to mind, as do certain members of Congress. One should, however, be wary of pushing historical comparisons too far. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-becoming-like-rome/509026/3 "2009-09-06T03:17:13Z")
I don’t think Michelle Obama even owns any hairpins. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-becoming-like-rome/509026/4 "2009-09-06T07:26:27Z")
Not the same, as you are asking about us becoming more Imperial, but I had a teacher in high school who made comparisons between us and Rome, predicting our _certain demise_. That was in 1979 and I was an indifferent student at best then, but some of things he went on about were: [ul] [li]Welfare roles high[/li][li]Sexual promiscuity (and especially _gay sex_)[/li][li]Professional sports being nothing more than a glorified Arena to keep the masses happy. (Also included were Professional Wrestling, which was like the Arena without the kills, Rodeos and Circuses. )[/li][li]More, but as I said, I wasn’t really paying attention.[/li][/ul] I was never sure if he believed his words, or if he was just being provocative. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-becoming-like-rome/509026/5 "2009-09-06T10:15:18Z")
Well, unlike Rome, the US won’t fall to foreign Barbarian invaders, no matter how decadent it becomes, because there aren’t anymore around today. States can linger on for decades in absolute decadence, while real development takes place elsewhere. Todays wars are economic, so maybe in 100 years the Chinese and Japanese will have bought all of American country without using one soldier.\* If you want to compare the final days of long-drawn-out corruption and decadence, sinking lower every decade, while believing the myths about how great an Empire / nation you are - then Rome and the US are quite similar. - I really don’t get why, e.g. in “Rising Sun”, Americans complain about the Japanese owning so much land in the US, if they are selling it in the first place. If money is the most important thing to you, more than heritage, why complain if somebody gives you money? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-becoming-like-rome/509026/6 "2009-09-06T21:20:48Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Well, unlike Rome, the US won’t fall to foreign Barbarian invaders, no matter how decadent it becomes, because there aren’t anymore around today. States can linger on for decades in absolute decadence, while real development takes place elsewhere. Todays wars are economic, so maybe in 100 years the Chinese and Japanese will have bought all of American country without using one soldier.\* > > If you want to compare the final days of long-drawn-out corruption and decadence, sinking lower every decade, while believing the myths about how great an Empire / nation you are - then Rome and the US are quite similar. > > - I really don’t get why, e.g. in “Rising Sun”, Americans complain about the Japanese owning so much land in the US, if they are selling it in the first place. If money is the most important thing to you, more than heritage, why complain if somebody gives you money? The Rising Sun myth was back in the '80s now it’s the Chinese and Indians. ---
**Author:** ![Long\_Time\_First\_Time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@Long\_Time\_First\_Time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Long_Time_First_Time)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-becoming-like-rome/509026/7 "2009-09-07T01:25:01Z")
IMHO we’re more like England at the end of the Victorian era. The similarity is that we have an extremely overetended military. One that costs us more than most other countries combined. We will not be able to maintain that type of spending much longer - we’re already seeing the strain it’s putting on other areas. There certainly seems to be a shifting in world power away from the US to Asia. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-becoming-like-rome/509026/8 "2009-09-07T01:33:36Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Well, unlike Rome, the US won’t fall to foreign Barbarian invaders, no matter how decadent it becomes, because there aren’t anymore around today. How about foreign barbarian workers? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Quintas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@Quintas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quintas)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-becoming-like-rome/509026/9 "2009-09-07T01:51:21Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Well, unlike Rome, the US won’t fall to foreign Barbarian invaders, no matter how decadent it becomes, because there aren’t anymore around today. States can linger on for decades in absolute decadence, while real development takes place elsewhere. Todays wars are economic, so maybe in 100 years the Chinese and Japanese will have bought all of American country without using one soldier.\* The OP, with his reference to Cicero, seemed to be asking if the US was in some ways similar to the late Republic, not the era of barbarian invasion 400 years later. He is asking if our future is imperial in nature, not if we are about to fall. ---
**Author:** ![Quintas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@Quintas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quintas)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-becoming-like-rome/509026/10 "2009-09-07T01:56:11Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Is the United States of America becoming like the Roman Republic circa during the Punic Wars? Strong?😕 The punic wars were over 100 years before Julius Caesar and the events that brought the end of the republic.. Anyways, to the question: Um.. I knew Cicero, Cicero was a friend of mine, and Pat Buchanan is no Cicero. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-becoming-like-rome/509026/11 "2009-09-07T01:57:00Z")
Of course not. No country “becomes” like another and for every historical parallel you can pick out, there are a dozen others that don’t apply. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-becoming-like-rome/509026/12 "2009-09-07T02:40:51Z")
> [@Quintas](#): > > I knew Cicero, Cicero was a friend of mine, and Pat Buchanan is no Cicero. I award Quintas two points for Best Post So Far In Thread. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-becoming-like-rome/509026/13 "2009-09-07T17:22:11Z")
> [@Quintas](#): > > Strong?😕 > > The punic wars were over 100 years before Julius Caesar and the events that brought the end of the republic.. > > Anyways, to the question: > > Um.. > > I knew Cicero, Cicero was a friend of mine, and Pat Buchanan is no Cicero. Pat Buchanan has preached against America being a “world policeman” and is opposed to NATO and other alliances. He has called for old-fashioned government and values. He is definately opposed to a multicultural empire that I wish the US would be and Rome was. All these Cicero advocated. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-becoming-like-rome/509026/14 "2009-09-07T17:26:32Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Is the United States of America becoming like the Roman Republic circa during the Punic Wars? We are more like Rome circa 476 A.D. ---
**Author:** ![Sefton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Sefton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sefton)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-becoming-like-rome/509026/15 "2009-09-07T17:35:16Z")
The only disturbing similarity I see is America’s increasing reliance on foreign labor. Romans complained about barbarians at the gates, but Rome had trained and employed those barbarians. But there’s one major problem the Roman Empire had that America doesn’t have: civil wars. Roman generals disputed each others’ claims to empire on a regular basis, and sometimes it seems like Rome’s greatest enemy was itself. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-becoming-like-rome/509026/16 "2009-09-08T16:37:29Z")
> [@Long\_Time\_First\_Time](#): > > IMHO we’re more like England at the end of the Victorian era. The similarity is that we have an extremely overetended military. One that costs us more than most other countries combined. We will not be able to maintain that type of spending much longer - we’re already seeing the strain it’s putting on other areas. > > There certainly seems to be a shifting in world power away from the US to Asia. We are a bit like GB, ca. 1900 or so. We are spending a fortune on our military, but get little benefit from the wars we fight (Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan). We also have a declining industrial sector. However, (unlike Edwardian England), we are a huge debtor country-and these debts are being underwritten b China and Japan. How long can this situation last? The obvious answer is to rebuild our nation, build up our industries, and improve our education..things that the elite class doesn’t want. Curiously, the rulingclass in the USA gets all the benefits of our imperium, but doesn’t send their sons and daughters into the military-they could are less about who does the fighting and dying-as long as they get their multi-million $ bonuses. I see a future when the working/middle classes will put a halt to this arrangement. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-becoming-like-rome/509026/17 "2009-09-08T16:39:00Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Pat Buchanan has preached against America being a “world policeman” and is opposed to NATO and other alliances. He has called for old-fashioned government and values. He is definately opposed to a multicultural empire that I wish the US would be and Rome was. All these Cicero advocated. Are you sure you don’t mean Cato the Younger? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-becoming-like-rome/509026/18 "2009-09-08T23:45:50Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Are you sure you don’t mean Cato the Younger? Wasn’t Cato the Elder the one who advocated destroying Catharge? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-becoming-like-rome/509026/19 "2009-09-09T00:00:59Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Wasn’t Cato the Elder the one who advocated destroying Catharge? Yes. Cato the Elder advocated destroying Carthage. Cato the Younger was his great grandson who complained a lot about the decadence of modern Rome and led the opposition to Julius Caesar. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-becoming-like-rome/509026/20 "2009-09-09T00:10:46Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Yes. Cato the Elder advocated destroying Carthage. Cato the Younger was his great grandson who complained a lot about the decadence of modern Rome and led the opposition to Julius Caesar. Oh sorry. I’m not an expert on Classical history. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-becoming-like-rome/509026.md?page=2)