# Is America Cruel? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2008, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654 "2008-12-11T01:38:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/41 "2008-12-12T01:04:18Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > There is a serious problem with authors and visitors who go to oppresive countries as guests - being received as if an honored guest, shown treatment far better than the average populace, access to food, shelter and freedoms which would get the average person imprisoned or shot… > > …then reporting that the place is just swell, thank you very much, and reports of it’s oppression and evil are grossly exaggerated. > > These people are damned fools, and they do great harm. > > Thousands of Americans went to help create the new Soviet Socialist experiment in the Great Depression, spurred on by those kinds of chuckleheads, who reported a made up story hiding a deadly trap. What those American immigrants found mostly horrified them, but having surrendered their American passports, they were shit out of luck. Doubly so because as Americans, they were considered untrustworthy from the get-go by Stalin and his boys, and many of them ended up in the Gulag. > > All through the cold war, we likewise had many ignorant individuals paying visits to the Soviet Union and reporting how the entire place was filled with Sunshine, Daisies and Puppies, and how America must be SOOOOO evil to be lying about those harmless commie funsters. > > I haven’t read this particular author’s work, because I’m not that stupid, but if he claims that North Korea isn’t so bad, then he’s truly a harmFUL dupe. An excellent example of this is the Swedish photographer who visited Cambodia in 1978 at the height of the Khmer Rouge regime as a guest of the government and could not find a single negative aspect of life there. He went away singing the praises of the Khmer Rouge to the world and recently returned to the country to apologize. See [here](http://ki-media.blogspot.com/2008/11/pol-pot-and-repentant-swede.html). ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/42 "2008-12-12T10:23:47Z")
IMHO, I think US seems to be really lenient. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/43 "2008-12-12T10:36:46Z")
> [@Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](#): > > I do not however think that acting in self-interest can reasonably be considered cruelty. Acting in self-interest isn’t cruel, it’s survival and eminently logical. But the question is, should there have been more Peace Corps and less Pinochet? ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/44 "2008-12-12T13:40:07Z")
Are Americans more cruel than other people? No. People are people, wherever you go. Is the American government more cruel than other governments? Possibly. We can compare internal political systems (the death penalty, length of prison terms), but IMHO, plenty of other nations would behave just like the US in foreign relations if they could get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/45 "2008-12-12T14:04:46Z")
> [@Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](#): > > If we’re not going to use other countries as a standard, than any comment on the US’s behaviour is irreverent. Without comparison there’s no context. Wrong. If someone flays someone else alive, do I need to know if that’s common behavior in that culture before I can call it cruel ? > [@Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](#): > > Particularly, I agree that many of our international interventions have been short-sighted - I do not however think that acting in self-interest can reasonably be considered cruelty. That’s ridiculous. Such things as torture and rape are just as cruel, regardless of the motive. The motives of their abusers and exploiters are irrelevant to their victim’s suffering. > [@Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](#): > > The fact remains that America, for all of modern history, has contributed far more money, military might, economic influence and political clout towards the goal of **ending** cruelty than it has ever spent on creating it. Oh, please. Mostly what we have done is exchange the cruelty of one group or it’s proxies for OUR cruelty or that of our proxies. Being raped, tortured and murdered by American funded & trained death squads & secret police isn’t less cruel than being raped, tortured and murdered by Communist funded & trained death squads & secret police. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/46 "2008-12-12T14:44:40Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > We have- > [ul] > [li]Guantonimo Bay[/li][li]A huge # of Americans in prison/jail[/li][li] **Very** long prison sentences.[/li][li]Seemingly ever-reducing rights[/li][li]Too damn much war, too damn often[/li][/ul] > > Are we cruel, as a Government, as a People, as a Nation? I don’t think your question has much content. It’s really just a proxy for “do you like America?” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/47 "2008-12-12T14:52:38Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I don’t think your question has much content. It’s really just a proxy for “do you like America?” Not at all. There are some things I dislike about America. In general, however, I don’t just like America- I _love_ America. I think it’s terrific, and I can honestly say I wouldn’t want to live anywhere else. Plus, I can say that with some authority, unlike the bumblefucks who say, “this is the greatest country on Earth!” without ever having so much as visited another country. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/48 "2008-12-12T14:58:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not at all. There are some things I dislike about America. In general, however, I don’t just like America- I _love_ America. I think it’s terrific, and I can honestly say I wouldn’t want to live anywhere else. > > Plus, I can say that with some authority, unlike the bumblefucks who say, “this is the greatest country on Earth!” without ever having so much as visited another country. And you weighed in earlier on the side of “America is not cruel,” thus proving my point. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/49 "2008-12-12T15:05:05Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > And you weighed in earlier on the side of “America is not cruel,” thus proving my point. Yeah, I know. I was just excited about an opportunity to say “bumblefuck”. I still don’t think this is the same argument as “do you like America?” though. I mean, we’re not discussing the weather, or pro football, or cheap and easily available marijuana, or any of our other glories- just whether or not we’re cruel. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/50 "2008-12-12T15:06:19Z")
I think Tommy Lee Jones’ quote from Men in Black is appropriate here (obviously, I’m paraphrasing): “A person is intelligent, reasonable, and understanding. People are dumb, misinformed, and prone to panic.” Certainly, parts of the US are cruel. Some of our practices are truly abhorrent. Parts of the US are also some of the best places on earth, with the kindest people. There have been acts performed here that are awesome in their self-sacrifice and generosity. Pretty much just like everywhere else - people are people. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/51 "2008-12-12T15:54:58Z")
I think we have become coarsened in recent years, post-9-11, and have been, alas, more willing to condone cruelty if it would lead to some (IMHO) temporary and illusory improvement in our security. But the American people, and the nation as a whole, are not cruel; far from it. Any country with as high a level of individual charitible giving, which distributes so much foreign aid, which often (but not always, I will concede) intervenes for humanitarian reasons as the U.S. did in Kosovo, for instance, is obviously not cruel. Sometimes short-sighted and often selfish, yes, but essentially and deeply good, committed to democracy and the rule of law, eager to help others, and determined to do right. When we stray from these ideals, everyone knows it, and we then have the chance - even the duty - to change course. And that’s just what we did on Nov. 4. We could all think of other nations throughout history which, if in the position the U.S. has been in as the sole superpower for almost 20 years, would have turned at once to military conquest and rapacious control of the world. We haven’t done that. Ours is a deeply flawed country, but what isn’t? Ask those helped by the Marshall Plan, the Peace Corps, U.S. AID, Habitat for Humanity, the Carter Center or the American Red Cross if America is cruel. The answer should be clear. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/52 "2008-12-12T16:33:23Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > (snip)committed to democracy and the rule of law, eager to help others, and determined to do right. But this patently isn’t true! As I said in my post up-thread, if that were the case there wouldn’t be so many America-sponsored coups overthrowing democracies to replace them with dictatorships/military juntas. If a democratic government pursues policies that aren’t in the US’s interests (especially if they’re a bit leftie) it’s happy to overthrow them. Look at [Nicaragua](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua#United_States_involvement_.281909_-_1933.29), [twice](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua#Sandinistas_and_the_Contras)in fact! Look at the [Democratic Republic of the Congo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo#Political_crisis_.281960.E2.80.931965.29). Look at [Iran](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax). Also invading Iraq and forcing it to accept democracy at gun point isn’t exactly a great example of fostering democracy either. Finally, if the US were that committed to democracy it wouldn’t so enthusiastically support regimes that are so utterly undemocratic, like Saudi Arabia to name one particularly egregious example. I won’t even go into how the US’s blind support for everything Israel does hasn’t been particularly good for peace and stablity in the middle east. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/53 "2008-12-12T16:57:09Z")
Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/54 "2008-12-12T17:34:28Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > I think Tommy Lee Jones’ quote from Men in Black is appropriate here (obviously, I’m paraphrasing): “A person is intelligent, reasonable, and understanding. People are dumb, misinformed, and prone to panic.” > > Certainly, parts of the US are cruel. Some of our practices are truly abhorrent. Parts of the US are also some of the best places on earth, with the kindest people. There have been acts performed here that are awesome in their self-sacrifice and generosity. Pretty much just like everywhere else - people are people. Going further, there are parts of America that are extremely religious–Bob Jones University and Crown Heights, NY for example–and other parts where everybody is only nominally members of a faith, or avowedly agnostic. Amazingly, California’s Governor Culbert Olson, in the 1940s, was a professed atheist. To say the country as a whole is religiously extreme is misleading. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/55 "2008-12-12T17:48:30Z")
[http://www.adbusters.org/files/media/flash/hope\_and\_memory/timeline.swf](http://www.adbusters.org/files/media/flash/hope_and_memory/timeline.swf) We will not get better until we admit who we are. We are a warlike group that intervenes frequently in far away places for money. It is always about money. ---
**Author:** ![Lama\_Pacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Lama\_Pacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lama_Pacos)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/56 "2008-12-12T18:12:02Z")
Yes, America is cruel. We are a country with immense ability to cause good in the world and within our borders and we have, recently, almost consistently chosen options that hurt people. The denialism in this thread is laid on heavy. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/57 "2008-12-12T18:35:22Z")
I think America is profoundly self-centered, arrogant, and ignorant. As a people, I think we consider ourselves better than others, more worthy of concern. Our splinters are more important than someone else falling into a manhole. I’ve never lived in another country, so I don’t know if that’s all to be expected. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/58 "2008-12-12T18:50:13Z")
I think the problem is that we don’t live up to our own PR. We have high expectations for ourselves, and inevitably fall short. But as a whole, we are a less cruel society than the vast majority of any that have existed throughout history. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/59 "2008-12-12T19:19:09Z")
> [@autz](#): > > We have high expectations for ourselves, and inevitably fall short. High expectations? I don’t really think so. We have a high opinion of ourselves and when our shortcomings are pointed out, we react as if we have never had a shortcoming, ever. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/60 "2008-12-13T00:36:08Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I think America is profoundly self-centered, arrogant, and ignorant. > > As a people, I think we consider ourselves better than others, more worthy of concern. Our splinters are more important than someone else falling into a manhole. > > I’ve never lived in another country, so I don’t know if that’s all to be expected. I don’t think we’re naturally more self centered than people anywhere else, but I do think that since the world began tribes of people, and later nations, have defined themselves as different in some way from their neighbors. Virtually every pre-industrial tribe of which I have ever heard uses a name for itself that means simply “the people”. It’s natural for the people of one’s own country to become, in one’s mind, the default type of humanity. Obviously this can shade into prejudice and xenophobia, but it’s probably better to recognize that it exists, for that very reason among others. I think we’re probably more prone to it in America because we don’t get the constant interaction with foreigners the way one might, say, in Europe. As ludicrous as it sounds, we don’t get a lot of foreigners here, instead we get immigrants. The difference is that “immigrants” are usually somewhere in the process of assimilating into the native population, and very often socially removed from the native population in such a way that they don’t interact on an equal basis. “Foreigners” are people from other countries you meet by chance, doing the same thing you are doing. If you look, on one hand, at the interaction between a Spanish computer programmer and a Dutch accountant who happen to be staying at the same Paris hotel; and on the other at that between a native-born American and a Central American day laborer he hires to help him move house, it’s clear that there is no comparison between the two situations. We don’t get the former because we’re too far away for most of the rest of the world to visit. We get the latter because, in most cases, they have left their homes to escape conditions they would rather forget and never return to. So we do tend to be insular. I don’t defend it, but it does exist. To the OP–“cruel”? Cruel?? Yep, we’re the wicked stepmother who shows up on Page 2. Couldn’t we come up with a better word than cruel? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654.md?page=4)