# Is America Cruel? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2008, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654 "2008-12-11T01:38:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/61 "2008-12-13T03:53:58Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > I don’t think we’re naturally more self centered than people anywhere else, but I do think that since the world began tribes of people, and later nations, have defined themselves as different in some way from their neighbors. Virtually every pre-industrial tribe of which I have ever heard uses a name for itself that means simply “the people”. It’s natural for the people of one’s own country to become, in one’s mind, the default type of humanity. Obviously this can shade into prejudice and xenophobia, but it’s probably better to recognize that it exists, for that very reason among others. > > I think we’re probably more prone to it in America because we don’t get the constant interaction with foreigners the way one might, say, in Europe. As ludicrous as it sounds, we don’t get a lot of foreigners here, instead we get immigrants. The difference is that “immigrants” are usually somewhere in the process of assimilating into the native population, and very often socially removed from the native population in such a way that they don’t interact on an equal basis. “Foreigners” are people from other countries you meet by chance, doing the same thing you are doing. If you look, on one hand, at the interaction between a Spanish computer programmer and a Dutch accountant who happen to be staying at the same Paris hotel; and on the other at that between a native-born American and a Central American day laborer he hires to help him move house, it’s clear that there is no comparison between the two situations. We don’t get the former because we’re too far away for most of the rest of the world to visit. We get the latter because, in most cases, they have left their homes to escape conditions they would rather forget and never return to. So we do tend to be insular. I don’t defend it, but it does exist. > > To the OP–“cruel”? Cruel?? Yep, we’re the wicked stepmother who shows up on Page 2. Couldn’t we come up with a better word than cruel? +1 Self-interested? Motivated? I got nothing that would expand upon yours and other posts similiar to yours. “We are who we thought we’d be!!” /Dennis Green ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/62 "2008-12-13T09:11:38Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > You want cruel? China bills the family for the cost of the bullet used to execute a prisoner. That’s cold. For the umpteeth time: **Cite?** This is just about the stupidest thing people can believe. So what if the family is too poor to pay for the bullet? The condemned is sent home? What is they refuse? What is the condemned has no family? I mean, come on! This is pure bullshit propaganda and anyone who believes this without further questioning is [censored]. China has a long way to go in matters of human rights BUT it has been moving in the right direction for years now while, at the same time, the USA was moving in the wrong direction. It was at the time that America denied the Red Cross access to its prisons that China allowed them to visit their prisons. So let us quit stupidly stereotyping China as such an awful place. Ask travelers where they are harrassed more by police on entering the country, America or China. There is NOTHING in China resembling what you are subjected to when you enter the USA. Nothing. Not to mention that China is not running Guantanamo, nor kidnapping people people off the streets of Italy, nor illegally spying on bank accounts in Holland, nor sending people to be tortured in other countries. Give me a break already. The USA is NOT, as many Americans think, the epitome of everything good and what all other countries want to be. It is a country, like any else, with some good, some bad and mostly people who just want to live their lives without being bothered too much. Just like China and just like pretty much other countries. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/63 "2008-12-13T09:15:47Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Not to mention that China is not running Guantanamo…nor sending people to be tortured in other countries. For China such actions are unnecessary as it has no prohibition against imprisoning its people for no reason or torturing them. Whilst it makes them a little less hypocritical it doesn’t make them better. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/64 "2008-12-13T09:28:24Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Missed the edit window. Here’s an article from July 2008 that seems to indicate China still charges the family for the bullet: > > [Cite 5](http://www.teachabroadchina.com/china-death-penalty-capital-punishment/) There are no first hand cites. It is all hearsay. No first hand account with names and locations. None. It all sounds like bad anti-communist propaganda. From Reader’s Digest. From 1980. I’m not saying anything like this has ever happened. But come on. This is like saying that if you are black in NYC the cops can shove a nightstick up your ass. And, regarding the death penalty, the USA and China are in the same league and outside the league of countries who have abolished it. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/65 "2008-12-13T09:30:51Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > As a people, I think we consider ourselves better than others, more worthy of concern. Our splinters are more important than someone else falling into a manhole. That’s normal. I don’t think it’s good, but it’s normal. During the recent bombings in Mumbay, all the Spanish TV channels kept reporting on the good health of a big Spanish politician who’d been in one of the hotels at the time and of her entourage. I’ve seen similar responses in other catastrophes and being in different locations: the bad news seem to bring tribalism back real fast. > [@autz](#): > > I think the problem is that we don’t live up to our own PR. We have high expectations for ourselves, and inevitably fall short. Not so much “high expectations” as a lot of… I don’t know how to call it, a high public image which falls apart very easily. The best medical system in the world - if you can afford it, and even then not so much better than in other “civillized” countries. The best universities - based on the “image” you’d think the University Of Lower Potatoville On The Left is better than the best university in France - of course that doesn’t hold water. > [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > As ludicrous as it sounds, we don’t get a lot of foreigners here, instead we get immigrants. And you see as immigrant anybody who wants to be in the country for more than a forthnight. The idea of the “temporary immigrant” is offensive to many Americans. “They want to come here, get money and go back home? How dare they?” In other places it’s viewed as perfectly natural. I wonder how many Mexicans would be perfectly happy to get temporary visas to work as fieldhands for a few months, a formula used by Spanish migrant workers to France for decades; from previous conversations in these forums I understand that option used to be available. But, ah, it’s temporary immigration: I’ve never heard it put quite in these words, but I think the people who are offended by the notion think that “if you’re coming to this country, you have to stay and help build it!” Coming, getting paid, paying taxes, then going back home and using your savings to open a car shop isn’t acceptable. I don’t know how bad it is right now, but when I lived in Miami there was lots of information available on how to become a citizen once you were a permanent resident; in four years I wasn’t able to get any information on how to become a permanent resident (other than “pay a lawyer”). I don’t think any of these constitutes cruelty, eh, just expanding a bit on points brought up by previous posters. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/66 "2008-12-13T09:45:25Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > For China such actions are unnecessary as it has no prohibition against imprisoning its people for no reason or torturing them. Whilst it makes them a little less hypocritical it doesn’t make them better. I would like to see some credible evidence that conditions in China are that awful compared to America. I do not believe that people in China are imprisoned “for no reason” or routinely tortured. Yes, I believe they are much harsher in some aspects and that political freedoms are much curtailed. It is also true that in America some things are treated very harshly compared with other developed countries and that you can get the death penalty. Where is it written that America is the canon by which everything else should be judged? I disagree with many aspects of Chinese government but I see they are moving in the right direction. Very fast. And it would be unreasonable to demand that they be where western countries with centuries of tradition in individual rights. I also disagree with many aspects of American government and I am dismayed to see how easily principles are abandoned and things which were considered cornerstones of western civilization are put aside with the full support of the American people as a whole. Both countries have much which can be improved. China is on the right course. America needs to reverse course. My hope is that both can do the right thing in the end. One more thing. I never understood this “they killed or tortured _their own people_!” It is just ridiculour nonsense. If a country feels the irrepressible need to kill or torture I would much hope it was their own people. At least they have the plausble excuse that they are dealing with something which concerns them. When Saddam Hussein killed Iraqis it was awful, but America can kill as many Iraqis as it wants and its OK because they’re not Americans? I would MUCH rather the American government were killing Americans instead of Iraqis. Maybe then Bush would not have been reelected. ---
**Author:** ![mecaenas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/91b2a8/32.png) [@mecaenas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mecaenas)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/67 "2008-12-13T10:47:50Z")
Yes, America can be cruel. Grow up and get used to reality. Life isn’t a fairytale, America isn’t the shining beacon of hope, liberty and freedomTM that the world clusters around and worships. America isn’t the kindly and loving benevolent nation spreading freedom throughout the world - your government has sided with “the bad guys” plenty of times. Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad the USSR imploded and didn’t become the world’s only superpower, but to pretend that the USA is perfect isn’t helping anyone. Accept that your nation can be cruel whenever it’s in the national interest to do so, it would be grossly naive to think otherwise. Yes, your nation is better than China in terms of executions because you didn’t bill the family for the bullet - but you still bloody well execute people eh? You don’t go chopping off hands for theft either? That’s a relief, but don’t be so quick to pat yourselves on the back because - don’t forget - the rest of the developed world doesn’t chop off hands either. Don’t congratulate yourselves for only committing some atrocities but not going as far as the really brutal regimes. It’s not as if there’s an absolute amount of blame or cruelty in the world to go around; it’s not as if accepting that your nation can be cruel somehow means Saudi Arabia is any less cruel or that you’re just like them. And the atrocities committed on your behalf by your government doesn’t automatically make you a cruel or unkind person, but defending the atrocities, ignoring them or saying ‘it’s ok’ because of double-standards would make you as an individual, cruel. ---
**Author:** ![chromaticity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@chromaticity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chromaticity)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/68 "2008-12-13T16:53:22Z")
America is cruel. But, so would any other country with as much money and resources. Any country will obviously look out for its own interests. As for comparing America with Saudi Arabia, now way is SA less cruel than America. ---
**Author:** ![Duhkecco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Duhkecco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duhkecco)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/69 "2008-12-13T17:33:28Z")
On _average_, the U.S. is as “cruel” as most other countries. But, I think that the \*distribution \*of cruelty in the U.S. population is flatter in comparison to, say, European countries. IOW, the U.S. has more cruelty \*and \*more humanitarianism. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/70 "2008-12-13T18:13:48Z")
I would say the US leads the world in “tough love.” People here are more likely to believe the old adage that “you have to be cruel to be kind,” and more likely to do so with those motives in mind. I suppose it’s our Puritan/Calvinist/fundamentalist heritage at work. The world needs a punisher, because kicking ass is a good in itself. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/71 "2008-12-13T18:15:33Z")
That might be true if the interference the US undertakes in foreign countries actually had a positive impact - but most of them don’t (and certainly not for the people who live in those countries). Want to give an example of where the US has “tough loved” a country and improved it as a result? ---
**Author:** ![Duhkecco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Duhkecco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duhkecco)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/72 "2008-12-13T18:24:12Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > I suppose it’s our Puritan/Calvinist/fundamentalist heritage at work. The world needs a punisher, because kicking ass is a good in itself. Where in Puritanism or Calvinism or Fundamentalism does it say that “kicking ass is a good in itself” or that the world needs one country to punish another? Seems to me like an excuse to control another country for the benefit of Americans, not for the citizens of that country. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/73 "2008-12-13T19:14:50Z")
> [@Duhkecco](#): > > IOW, the U.S. has more cruelty \*and \*more humanitarianism. What makes you think there is more humanitarianism in the U.S.? ---
**Author:** ![Duhkecco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Duhkecco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duhkecco)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/74 "2008-12-13T19:38:05Z")
Well, I can’t quantify it, and I could be wrong. It just seems to me that the U.S. is a country of greater extremes. There have been many humanitarian efforts by Americans, but, of course, there have been efforts by many other countries as well. Perhaps it’s just that the U.S. is bigger, or that I’m just more aware of the American efforts. ---
**Author:** ![dgrdfd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@dgrdfd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dgrdfd)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/75 "2008-12-13T20:56:48Z")
Yes, we are cruel. But so is every other country in some way. Just like any other country can say, we are better than others in some areas and worse in other areas. I mean, you can point to Iraq and you can point to AIDs education in Africa. Some good, some bad. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/76 "2008-12-14T02:59:43Z")
> [@Duhkecco](#): > > Seems to me like an excuse to control another country for the benefit of Americans, not for the citizens of that country. I don’t doubt it. My point is that we punish (others and our own) out of righteousness, sometimes self-righteousness. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/77 "2008-12-14T03:39:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No we aren’t. We lag behind just about every significant Western-style democracy in foreign aid as a percentage of GDP. We’re second to last if you include India, which I wouldn’t, for obvious reasons. Do you have a cite for that? I’m curious to see the comparisons. > [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://www.adbusters.org/files/media/flash/hope\_and\_memory/timeline.swf](http://www.adbusters.org/files/media/flash/hope_and_memory/timeline.swf) > We will not get better until we admit who we are. We are a warlike group that intervenes frequently in far away places for money. It is always about money. How was [Operation Restore Hope](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Somalia_(1992%E2%80%931993)) about money? > [@sailor](#): > > I would like to see some credible evidence that conditions in China are that awful compared to America. I do not believe that people in China are imprisoned “for no reason” or routinely tortured. [Falun Gong](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong), for starters. Comparing China favorably to the US is ludicrous. > [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Seemingly ever-reducing rights I’ll strongly disagree with this statement. Other than some recent, temporary, set-backs like the ignominious and poorly-named _Patriot Act_ the US has never been a more free and liberal nation. ---
**Author:** ![shallora](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f9ae1b/32.png) [@shallora](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shallora)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/78 "2008-12-14T14:54:22Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > We have- > [ul] > [li]Guantonimo Bay[/li][li]A huge # of Americans in prison/jail[/li][li] **Very** long prison sentences.[/li][li]Seemingly ever-reducing rights[/li][li]Too damn much war, too damn often[/li][/ul] > > Are we cruel, as a Government, as a People, as a Nation? I can’t stand rhetorical questions from Lefties like this. The OP’s original question is yet another in a series of highly ignorant yet thinly veiled “Amerikka sucks” questions where the OP probably didn’t really care about anyone’s answer or the discussion, insulting us all. The OP was simply too cowardly to pose his opinion an a IMHO statement (e.g., he could have titled this thread “America IS cruel, and let me tell you exactly why!”) so instead the OP phrased it as a question (“IS America Cruel?”) partly to disguise the fact that he’s not interested in the anwer and partly because by asking a question he can claim he’s on a quest for intelligent conversation, when in fact he’s interested in neither. If the OP has visited almost any other country and looked at cruelty in other countries – or even if the OP would look within at how generous Americans are when it comes to international aid and funding – the OP would have never asked the question in the first place. Thinly veiled slams and rhetorical questions like this have no place to be on the Straight Dope, IMHO, as it’s beneath us all. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/79 "2008-12-14T15:16:12Z")
> [@shallora](#): > > I can’t stand rhetorical questions from Lefties like this. The OP’s original question is yet another in a series of highly ignorant yet thinly veiled “Amerikka sucks” questions where the OP probably didn’t really care about anyone’s answer or the discussion, insulting us all. > > The OP was simply too cowardly to pose his opinion an a IMHO statement (e.g., he could have titled this thread “America IS cruel, and let me tell you exactly why!”) so instead the OP phrased it as a question (“IS America Cruel?”) partly to disguise the fact that he’s not interested in the anwer and partly because by asking a question he can claim he’s on a quest for intelligent conversation, when in fact he’s interested in neither. > > If the OP has visited almost any other country and looked at cruelty in other countries – or even if the OP would look within at how generous Americans are when it comes to international aid and funding – the OP would have never asked the question in the first place. > > Thinly veiled slams and rhetorical questions like this have no place to be on the Straight Dope, IMHO, as it’s beneath us all. I just can’t see it like you do. What’s “rhetorical” about > [@](#): > > “Guantonimo” Bay > A huge # of Americans in prison/jail > Very long prison sentences. > Seemingly ever-reducing rights > Too damn much war, too damn often ? Those things are quite different in America than in other developed, western, nations. Do you care to answer why? Or just bask in your outrage so you don’t have to answer the hard questions? Bashing or no bashing those things are facts. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-cruel/476654/80 "2008-12-14T17:01:36Z")
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