Is America Cruel?

[Der_Trihs]

In my view, yes, America is cruel. And no, you can’t lay it at Bush’s feet; first, he was re-elected; second, such behavior didn’t start with him, and third it’s not like he personally has inflicted all that torture and slaughter with his own two hands. He had help, and lots of it. And it’s not like our cruelty is limited to non-Americans.

The “other countries are worse” argument doesn’t work. The selectivity in what countries we get compared to has been noted - you might as well claim America is religiously moderate by comparing it to Iran or Saudi Arabia. There’s also the problem that many of those cruel regimes were placed there by us, supported by us, and full of people trained by us in things like torture techniques.

And most importantly, even if other countries ARE crueler, that doesn’t make us one bit less cruel.

[seodoa]

@Der_Trihs

In my view, yes, America is cruel. And no, you can’t lay it at Bush’s feet; first, he was re-elected; second, such behavior didn’t start with him, and third it’s not like he personally has inflicted all that torture and slaughter with his own two hands. He had help, and lots of it. And it’s not like our cruelty is limited to non-Americans.

The “other countries are worse” argument doesn’t work. The selectivity in what countries we get compared to has been noted - you might as well claim America is religiously moderate by comparing it to Iran or Saudi Arabia. There’s also the problem that many of those cruel regimes were placed there by us, supported by us, and full of people trained by us in things like torture techniques.

And most importantly, even if other countries ARE crueler, that doesn’t make us one bit less cruel.

Here here.

At first, I have been hesitant to use the word “cruel”. I don’t think the government, military, or others involved in torture and slaughter are doing it out of pleasure (sadism) or hatred (um, wrath?). Selfishness, yes. Shortsightedness, sure. Ignorance, definitely. Intolerance (mostly due to aforementioned ignorance), obviously. But I don’t think the US government acts the way it does out of any dark or sinister machinations. At least, I certainly hope not.

That being said, while the intentions may not be sinister or cruel, the results certainly are. Despite a constitution that clearly denounces “cruel or unusual punishment” and detention without trial, the government, and, to an extent the people, are ready to ignore this when convenient.

I am by no means a self-hating 'murican. I love the charming little slice of the American Pie where I was raised. But I cannot with a clear conscience say that our nation’s government and foreign policy are ideal. They are from it.

Is that to say America is the only developed country worthy of criticism? Certainly not. But we certainly cannot say we are without serious fault. And, as Der Trihs said, it doesn’t really matter that other countries are worse/better/the same as us. If I were to kill a baby, and I made the defense, “Well, maybe so, but Marybeth Tinning killed nine of her kids, so I’m not so bad, eh,” they’d laugh me out of court. Well, no they wouldn’t, they’d convict me of infanticide and sentence me to be beat with sticks. Just because somebody is worse than you doesn’t make you okay now.

[Interconnected_Series_of_Tubes]

Objectionable policies aside, can the greatest humanitarian nation that has ever existed really be considered cruel?

Show me another nation that can even hold a candle to the United States’ historical interventions against unbridled evil. Oh, that’s right - you can’t.

[Martiju]

@Interconnected_Series_of_Tubes

Objectionable policies aside, can the greatest humanitarian nation that has ever existed really be considered cruel?

Show me another nation that can even hold a candle to the United States’ historical interventions against unbridled evil. Oh, that’s right - you can’t.

Of course, one man’s unbridled evil is another’s freedom. To that extent then yes, the US as a nation borders on an extreme right wing interventionist approach which could be considered cruel.

As noted above, comparisons with other countries are largely meaningless however. I don’t consider a large proportion of the American people to be cruel - at worst I’d say self-centered and ignorant of the ways of the world. That’s people for you though, and I’d say we were just as bad in the UK to the point that social justice comes second to most other considerations.

[Malthus]

@JaneSaintClair

I just finished this great book called Badlands, which is a travelogue of a writer who visits all of the so-called-axis of evil type countries and gives them a rating of “badness.” He goes to Cuba, Albania, Afghanistan, North Korea, Libya, Saudi Arabia and a few others.

After reading the book, I concur with his conclusion: many (although not all) of the countries he visited are not quite so bad. And in fact, when you compare some of them to the US, we meet the definition.

It really opened my eyes to some of the cruel things that the US does, while at the same time accusing other countries of being the axis of evil.

This guy visits places like Saudi Arabia and North Korea and concludes that they are comparable to the US is “badness”? That just sounds bonkers.

• Mathus, who is Canadian.

[Siam_Sam]

@Oakminster

You want cruel? China bills the family for the cost of the bullet used to execute a prisoner. That’s cold.

@Henrichek

I’ve heard this told before, but with a quick googling I didn’t find any reference that this is still being done. Wikipedia mentions that they collected a bullet fee in the past.

I can’t provide a cite at the moment, but I’ve always read that was an Urban Legend and that sources claiming it was true were themselves writing based on inaccurate information.

[seodoa]

@Siam_Sam

I can’t provide a cite at the moment, but I’ve always read that was an Urban Legend and that sources claiming it was true were themselves writing based on inaccurate information.

My Googling seems to agree with you. All of the sources I could find seemed to be referencing and quoting one another, if they referenced anyone at all.

[Interconnected_Series_of_Tubes]

@Martiju

Of course, one man’s unbridled evil is another’s freedom. To that extent then yes, the US as a nation borders on an extreme right wing interventionist approach which could be considered cruel.

As noted above, comparisons with other countries are largely meaningless however. I don’t consider a large proportion of the American people to be cruel - at worst I’d say self-centered and ignorant of the ways of the world. That’s people for you though, and I’d say we were just as bad in the UK to the point that social justice comes second to most other considerations.

I don’t disagree with you on any particular point - I’ve been pulling an all-nighter so I may come across as a little abrasive. That being said:

If we’re not going to use other countries as a standard, than any comment on the US’s behaviour is irreverent. Without comparison there’s no context. Particularly, I agree that many of our international interventions have been short-sighted - I do not however think that acting in self-interest can reasonably be considered cruelty. The fact remains that America, for all of modern history, has contributed far more money, military might, economic influence and political clout towards the goal of ending cruelty than it has ever spent on creating it.

Overall, we’re still by a large margin the most demonstrably benevolent nation in history. Could we do more? Sure - and lots would cry “imperialists!” Could we do less? Sure - then we’re selfish, cold-hearted bastards. I think Spiderman could relate best.

[shiftless]

Sure there is cruelty in the US of A. From people, from the governement and from life itself. But life is nowhere near as cruel here than it is in many, many other places.

That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be trying to make it still less cruel. Those things the OP lists are real problems that should be, and I believe are being, addressed. The simple fact that the OP can publicly ask the question AND the fact that it is within our individual power to take action on each one of those without (too much) fear puts the US in the upper strata of non-cruel countries.

[Oakminster]

@Henrichek

Cite?

I’ve heard this told before, but with a quick googling I didn’t find any reference that this is still being done. Wikipedia mentions that they collected a bullet fee in the past.

Not finding anything that says they still do this.

Here’s a cite that it was done in the early 80s:

Cite

Here’s an article from Jan 2008 that says they did it “in the past”:

Cite 2

A New York Times article from 2001 that says it was “often the case”:

Cite 3

An article from the UK that says it was done in 2001:

Cite 4

[Oakminster]

Missed the edit window. Here’s an article from July 2008 that seems to indicate China still charges the family for the bullet:

Cite 5

[robz]

As far as # people in prison / long sentences.

People elect represenatives to pass laws.
Courts determine if the law is constitutional
Some people break the law.
Some People get sent to prison.
People who do not break the law are protected from the lawbreakers who are in prison.

No, I do not think this is cruel. I wish people would not murder, rape, rob, etc., but if they CHOOSE to do so then they should go to jail.

If the people feel the sentences are too long they can elect new represenatives.

In the state of Pa the local judges are elected, so you can vote in new judges also.

What is cruel is innocent people are murdered, raped, robbed etc, and then are forced to pay for the incarceration of the murderers, rapists, robbers, etc.

(rereading this makes me think I am Scrooge)

[Typo_Negative]

On any given day, we can represent all best, and worst, that humanity has to offer.

[5-HT]

I agree that our “success” at jailing people is disturbing, I’m just glad I live in a state without the death penalty.

the other three seem pretty linked to the current administration, so I don’t know if its fair to blame the whole culture.

[Henrichek]

@robz

No, I do not think this is cruel. I wish people would not murder, rape, rob, etc., but if they CHOOSE to do so then they should go to jail.

The length of the prison terms can still be evaluated with regards to utility and cruelty. What you said in the post could be applied to any punishments and has little bearing whether they are cruel or not. You could argue that a law mandates that chopping off a shoplifter’s hand is not cruel, since such is the law, and the crime was committed. It doesn’t mean the punishment isn’t cruel.

There’s always some point where a punishment becomes excessive and cruel. I don’t mean to argue where that point should be now, but to point out that your argument doesn’t really work.

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

@JaneSaintClair

I just finished this great book called Badlands, which is a travelogue of a writer who visits all of the so-called-axis of evil type countries and gives them a rating of “badness.” He goes to Cuba, Albania, Afghanistan, North Korea, Libya, Saudi Arabia and a few others.

After reading the book, I concur with his conclusion: many (although not all) of the countries he visited are not quite so bad. And in fact, when you compare some of them to the US, we meet the definition.

It really opened my eyes to some of the cruel things that the US does, while at the same time accusing other countries of being the axis of evil.

I gotta say, this author doesn’t seem credible, especially on North Korea.

How about I rephrase?

Is America Getting Crueler as time goes by?

[Siam_Sam]

@Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor

I gotta say, this author doesn’t seem credible, especially on North Korea.

How about I rephrase?

Is America Getting Crueler as time goes by?

I don’t think so at all, but this does seem to be a common sentiment following an unpopular president and/or unpopular war. I recall these same musings following Nixon/Vietnam. Then we had “Morning in America” in the 1980s and Clinton in the 1990s, and all but the professionaly disgruntled felt pretty positive about the country. Now it’s come back. Ebb and flow.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@ICOT

Overall, we’re still by a large margin the most demonstrably benevolent nation in history.

No we aren’t. We lag behind just about every significant Western-style democracy in foreign aid as a percentage of GDP. We’re second to last if you include India, which I wouldn’t, for obvious reasons.

In absolute terms, of course, we’re by far the largest source of foreign aid, but that’s hardly a fair measure.

Most of our foreign military ventures have been undertaken in our own self-interest. We didn’t enter WWII to save Europe; we didn’t oppose Communism to protect other peoples’ right to self-determination, but to ensure that the rest of the world didn’t turn into a giant Soviet client state; we didn’t go to Iraq to save the Iraqis. In fact, the only purely humanitarian military intervention I can think of in recent history was Kosovo, aside from UN peacekeeping deployments. I suspect there have been one or two more, though.

Does that make us cruel? Hardly. But we’re not exactly the shining city on the hill, as we like to think we are.

[Chimera]

There is a serious problem with authors and visitors who go to oppresive countries as guests - being received as if an honored guest, shown treatment far better than the average populace, access to food, shelter and freedoms which would get the average person imprisoned or shot…

…then reporting that the place is just swell, thank you very much, and reports of it’s oppression and evil are grossly exaggerated.

These people are damned fools, and they do great harm.

Thousands of Americans went to help create the new Soviet Socialist experiment in the Great Depression, spurred on by those kinds of chuckleheads, who reported a made up story hiding a deadly trap. What those American immigrants found mostly horrified them, but having surrendered their American passports, they were shit out of luck. Doubly so because as Americans, they were considered untrustworthy from the get-go by Stalin and his boys, and many of them ended up in the Gulag.

All through the cold war, we likewise had many ignorant individuals paying visits to the Soviet Union and reporting how the entire place was filled with Sunshine, Daisies and Puppies, and how America must be SOOOOO evil to be lying about those harmless commie funsters.

I haven’t read this particular author’s work, because I’m not that stupid, but if he claims that North Korea isn’t so bad, then he’s truly a harmFUL dupe.
On the other issue, that being this idea that we can’t claim that we’re not as bad as others because that wouldn’t fly in court, I believe that is a straw man. There is and can be no absolute good government, free of all cruelty as all people would define it. Therefore, to say that we cannot compare one to another and say that we’re not as bad because such a thing wouldn’t fly in court is absurd. There is no lawsuit here, no perfect standard of goverment that we may be so judged against.

It is true enough in certain respects, reminding me only of the bible’s statement “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God”, but insomuch as that is true, it is a fool’s errand to judge all as unworthy because we as humans cannot obtain perfection.

One of my personal quotes is;

“Fair” is a Human Ideological concept.

What we define as goodness, fairness, what is right, is an ideological ideal that we create within ourselves. Fairness does not exist in nature. It is a subjective concept, not an objective concept.

So when we try to judge someone or something based on our ideals of fairness, balance, equality, perfection; our standards are necessarily flawed, biased and in of themselves, UNfair.

Thus we can sit at our computers all day and banter back and forth about cruelty, fairness, perfection and so forth, each of us holding a completely different view of exactly what that perfection is.

For example, and this is not meant as a hijack - so please take it to another thread if discussion warrants;

How come we think it compassionate to put down animals who are suffering, but take as many extreme efforts as possible to milk every possible moment of life out of those humans in great pain? Why do WE HUMANS struggle so hard in such adversity to stay alive in these situations, while seeing it as compassionate to offer release to animals in similar situations?

Which one is cruel?

Again - if you want to discuss that, create a new thread. I’m only using it for the purposes of illustrating how such things are basically ideological and subjective.

[Tom_Tildrum]

@Oakminster

Guantanomo … can be laid at the feet of Shrub.

Bush I and Clinton used Gitmo for the indefinite detention of Haitian refugees, without access to legal process.