So are you saying sailor there is NO agenda when the original question was posted?
Yeah. right.
You asked me:
>Or just bask in your outrage so you don’t have to answer the hard questions?
Again with the rhetorical questions? Need I point out that your above sentence is a STATEMENT, not a question.
Nothing wrong with statements … . but let’s call a spade a spade, okay?
Now on to the only actual question you asked me:
>Those things are quite different in America than in other developed, western, nations. Do you care to answer why?
First, how do you know they are “quite” different in America than in other devleoped western nations of a similar size? Because you just think it is, because of course everything America does, by definition, has to be wrong? :rolleyes:
Because you heard it on Air America once? Because your Liberal guilty consciousness told you so?
You presented these opinions of yours as “facts”: So how bout it: Let’s first have some Citation, please! Otherwise go home.
Conclusion? We treat our prisoners more humanely, even though we do have more people in prison as a proportion of the total overall population.
But which is better? Humane treatment of a large prison population or inhumane treatment of a few? You see it’s not a simple matter of “A” is better than “B”, as you will find out when you grow up, kids.
Take Japan. . .
"The problem[with the Japanese prison sysem], human rights campaigners say, is that the Japanese system achieves [the treatment of prisoners] record in part by draconian rules and mind-boggling regimentation.
“It smacks of totalitarianism,” said Joanne Mariner, a prison specialist for Human Rights Watch, a New York-based human rights organization. “There’s an obsession with rules and with absolute, strict obedience to rules. When they believe rules have not been followed, then there is arbitrary punishment.”…
So which is worse? Treating prisoners humanely but simply having more of them, or having less prisonors but inflicting borderline human rights abuses on them?
Tough choice.
Which is why you can’t boil things down so simple-mindedly as the OP and sailor want you to believe.
America is not cruel enough when going after it’s enemies. Osama Bin Laden was right when he called us a “paper tiger”. We shouldn’t be worrying about what other nations think in the hunt for Bin Laden. Not at all.
Guantánamo: No other civilized country has anything like it. No other civilized country is kidnapping people and torturing them or sending them to be tortured.
The prison population per capita of the USA is huge when compared with any other developed country. We discussed this in some thread not long ago titled something like in what does America lead the world. You can look it up. It is a fact that America has a huge subclass which lives in and out of prison. People who are not integrated and who are left outside the system. While every country has this, the numbers in America are much, much higher.
Very long prison sentences. The stupid war on drugs and other “crimes” which would not result in prison time in other countries contribute to this. The "three strikes"rule, mandatory sentences, etc. Americans do not want to solve the problem, they want punishment and retribution and they don’t care if the problem gets worse (or maybe they dont undertstand it will just get worse). I think this is what the OP is talking about and I agree.
Seemingly ever-reducing rights. I think this is quite obvious.
Too damn much war, too damn often. As is this. The American government and the people want and like war so a new war has to be found every few years. No other developed / civilized country is so prone to starting wars and causing trouble.
Welcome to the club. The UK had just about washed the blood off its hands from its days as being a colonial hegemonising empire and next thing you know we’re invading Iraq for completely spurious reasons (despite the biggest public protest in the country’s history), passing laws that allow detainment of people without charge outside of habeas corpus laws for 28 days and all but planning to microchip everyone to keep tabs on us (if you don’t have anything to hide, you don’t have anything to fear, now hold still…).
Russia
North Korea
Jordan
Syria
Myanmar
Uganda
Somalia
Tajikistan
Uzbekistan
Haiti
Sudan
Iran
Pakistan
Slovenia
Albania
Italy
Iraq
Algeria
Lybia
Sierra Leone
Nicaragua
El Salvador
Colombia
Argentina
Mexico
. . . and yes, even Canada does, too.
I’m done with your ignorance. Either that or I should start charging you fees for the amount of tutoring that I’m giving you.
He asked about civilized countries, no? Best I recollect, these countries have all been settled and civilized. Many have regional western-oriented histories that extend hundreds if not thousands of years before America was even discovered. Or are we going to debate that too?
It’s something to be said that – in some 500 short years since Columbus first brought the West to this continent – America has gone from almost an unknown land on the fringe of the map up to one that has surpassed in decency many other civilizations which are many times older.
And even compared to the answer you were really looking for – that the Swedes and Japanese run countries which are even less cruel than America – that is probably true however neither Sweden nor Japan has anywhere near the population diversity, nor opportunity, nor immigration, nor almost anything else (good and bad) that America has.
Really in terms of sheer size and diversity of population, geographic area, national per capita wealth, etc., there are really only a few countries in the world that are on the same plane as the US, so making comparisons to other countries on this kind of scale is often moot. Sure, Sweden has the resources, but not the population. Japan has the population, but not necessarily a diverse one, and then there’s the matter of resources.
Broad brush strokes simply don’t work when you’re comparing the 900-lb gorilla of the USA to, say . . . a Belgium.
It’s to be expected. Tribalism is a universal feature of human character, and it has been fairly evenly distributed among the many, many non-North Americans with whom I am friends. Americans tend to be less informed and concerned about other countries, but that’s simply a function of being distant and powerful – and what people think about foreign countries tends to be stupid or simplistic anyway.
You are simply wrong, on several important points.
•Europe and Canada have both been complicit in the CIA’s activities (those are news stories, not summaries – sorry, I like/trust HRW and didn’t feel like digging hard.)
•I’m ignoring your bit about prisons/crime, since it has nothing to do with “cruelty” – the cruelty in the US may best be found in police violations of the public trust, and that happens in every country, Western or otherwise.
•Ever-reducing rights? They went downhill for a time after 9/11, in response to a shock – the trend was extraordinarily temporary, mirrored by most other Western countries, and less than surprising. It will undoubtedly get better in the near future.
•The United States remains the largest military power in the world. Of course it has more foreign adventures than anyone else. The United States has a far greater capacity to cause trouble than any other country – and in fact, given China’s policies of supporting the Darfur genocide and selling arms to a wide variety of unpleasant people (Congo militants and Mugabe, among others, IIRC), not to mention the absent norm of humanitarian intervention, there clearly is at least one worse transgressor in this regard than the United States.
•To even suggest that China could compare to the US in terms of human rights is ignorant and ridiculous. This sampling of current issues may well be contrasted with the issues confronting the United States.
•As far as I know, many of the people who disagree with you in this thread are deeply concerned with human rights in the United States. How is anyone “basking in [his/her] outrage” to avoid “the hard questions”? Many people can hold two thoughts in their heads at the same time.
I’m sorry I’m not going to write anything coherent. I’m quite interested in how the US identifies itself and how others identify it, but really, I avoid this sort of thread. Such things annoy me to no end – it’s even worse than my fellow Canadians getting all self-righteous.
Ehm. I don’t know about Japan, but you’re wrong about Sweden. We take in an immense amount of immigrants. Both USA and Sweden seems to have about a 12% immigrant population. Also, we grant asylum to many more refugees than USA does, and our refugee population is 7 times that of the USA by capita.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/imm_ref_pop_by_cou_or_ter_of_asy_percap-country-territory-asylum-per-capita
Between 1990 and 1999 we have also had a very high refugee inflow. I didn’t gather any more recent statistics, but this trend has not changed, we have instead taken more refugees lately rather than less. I am fairly sure that we still sit at one of the top spots in this regard. For a smaller but more recent sample, I cite the US DHS Yearbook of Immigration statistics, which says the US granted asylum to 25270 people in 2007, and the Swedish Migration Board’s statistics of 2007, with 15639 granted asylums for the same year. Per capita this shows that Sweden accepted 20 times more refugees than US in that year. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/imm_ref_inf_199_percap-inflow-1990-99-per-capita
Even the city of Södertälje with population 80000 has taken more Iraqi refugees than the US and Canada together since the start of the war in 2003 (at least until last year). Apparently your goal is about 12000 from Iraq in 2008. In 2007 we received 19000 from there, which is over 50 times more per capita. Before 2007 less than a thousand had been admitted into the US.
I lost track here after digging for a little statistics, and it’s getting a bit too much off-topic here. To return to the issue: How are your points even relevant to the cruelty of the US or the comparisons made? The geographical size is hardly a good excuse, I don’t see why it would adversely affect cruelty. Is the population any excuse? I don’t think so. Considering the immigration and asylum of the US, I think it only helps the other side of the argument. As an example: I think the US should take a muuuuuch higher responsibility for Iraqi refugees than it has until now. You seem to have done a better job in 2008 than before, maybe because of the mayor of Södertälje’s speech for your congress some year ago (read above link from thelocal.se), but you’re faaaaar from pulling your own weight here. I think it’s quite cruel to bomb a country to pieces in the first place, and it doesn’t help that you don’t take much responsibility of the refugee fallout.
Sure, the US is bigger in size and population, but I don’t see how any of them would invalidate any comparisons made here.
Lastly, please describe what makes you think there is more opportunity, or “anything else (good or bad)” in the United States, and how this is relevant.
So now we are comparing America with North Korea, Haiti, Sudan, Uganda and Myanmar. Well, well, well. You know things are really bad when you have to compare your country to those in order to come out ahead.
Let us look at some other countries. Italy for instance. How can you say they have anything comparable to Guantanamo? That’s just ludicrous. Canada? Canada?!!! CANADA??!! WTF are you talking about??
Argentina? Nicaragua? El Salvador? Chile? They are all countries which today have regimes which respect human rights and which not so long ago had regimes installed or supported by the USA which were well known for killing and torturing.
I would rather you compare the USA with, you know, countries in the same cultural league like Canada, Australia, Europe…
Yes, we know the USA is not as bad as Nazi Germany but that is not much of an achievement, is it?
I am aware of this and I have denounced it often and I will continue to do so. Europe has not done these things, they have been complicit in looking the other way (which is bad enough) due to the huge pressure America can put to bear. The difference is that America is the one doing it with the full support and endorsement of the government, congress and people while these things are clearly illegal in Europe and only some executive authorities have turned the blind eye. When they have been discovered they have been denounced. Still, in my view, not enough has been done. The resolutions passed condemning the USA for the acts are not forceful enough but Europeans do not want to piss off America. I do not agree with this and I believe Human Rights come before any good relations with America and these acts should be forcefully condemned and any European officials found to have facilitated them should be tried and punished. Again, note the difference is between a few officials being pressured by America and doing illegal things versus America doing them. There is a huge difference but I condemn those European officials and would like to see them in jail. America has no morals when it comes to its own interests and will install and support the worst regimes if it is convenient. I already mentioned the case of several south American countries which are scarred by the consequences of having murderous dictatorships installed by America. Families are still looking for the remains of their loved ones.
I disagree that prisons/crime have nothing to do with cruelty. They are a sure sign that America cannot integrate in society a large segment of the population. People who in other countries would find help in America only find despair and then prison.
It has not beem mirrored by other countries to a great extent and to whatever extent it has I will denounce it. America has had tpo put a lot of pressure on the EU in order to get information about travellers, bank accounts, etc. I do not like the EU giving in. I think they should hold their place and say no. I denounce that too. In any case I do hope things get better but I am not optimistic.
I do not recall China starting any foreign wars in the last few decades excepting some border skirmishes. I do not recall China sending their troops to any country around the world and installing puppet regimes.
I have said that China has a long way to go. I have also said they are moving in the right direction fast while the USA is moving in the wrong direction. I think it is important to take into account where the two countries started a couple decades ago and in what direction they are moving. I never said China was better in absolute terms but I will say China is better is some specific points.
I was referring to a specific post by a specific poster who was, indeed, being faux-outraged and not addressing the points raised.
Your post was coherent and I hope my answers were too.
I think it is good and important and the best way for the USA to have a good image is to actually be better, not just pretend to be better. I have no interest in criticizing America and I really, really, wish I had no motives to do so. But as long as Human Rights are being broken I will denounce it. Anywhere.
Well, you did not avoid it this time.
If there is anybody in the world who get self-righteous it’s Americans. That’s why they believe in getting into all these wars and spreading “democracy”. If and when Canada gets into wars it’s usually because they were dragged into it by America.
Country by country:
•Canada has something comparable to Guantanamo – namely Guantanamo. Its compliance in the treatment of Canadians has led to some pretty serious shit up here. Also, the Patriot Act has an equivalent in Canada, by which all of the plotters in that ridiculous kill-the-PM plot are being held. So yes, “Canada!!!”
•In fact, the Patriot Act has equivalents in a number of other countries, including Australia and the UK, France, etc. You (should) get the idea.
•Listing Chile was probably a mistake, given that their anti-terror stuff is worse than America’s by far (yes, I did have to look that up. Interesting reading, I’m learning here.)
•Italy has exported someone to a country where they had been tortured, and I believe it’s yet another US-compliant country.
Incidentally, speaking as a Canadian, I reject your ridiculous notion that there are other “countries in the same cultural league” as the United States. Extreme power and wealth, a cultural tradition of self-help, and lots of other “Americanisms” have a role to play in America’s perceived interests that simply don’t exist for other countries. Hence, you get different results.
Another (disjunct, sorry) thought. If you care about human rights, then incorrectly moralizing about the United States is harmful to your goal, in that it destroys your credibility. Alternatively – and your dubious contributions to other threads would support this idea – you like to scapegoat the US, and you’re brutally misinformed. You’re not alone in that feeling –hell, too many Canadians are with you – but it’s a pretty useless worldview. Frankly, the world has too many moralists as it is.
(I’m not quoting your entire post, and I’m not addressing it point by point. That gets really annoying to read.)
You clearly need to talk to more Canadians. Their (our) self-righteousness has some good points – it helps raise support for things like peacekeeping that don’t directly protect national interests (we can’t) but bring prestige and goodwill. Canada doesn’t get “dragged into wars” (seriously, like, what, Korea?) – it just is learning in Afghanistan that peacekeeping actually has costs. Shocking. Really, though, Canada has 30mil people with a tiny military expenditure sitting on top of more resources than they can protect – so naturally it pushes for norms of liberal cooperation and humanitarianism, and naturally its citizens then perceive it as moral superiority. It’s annoying as hell. Canada is hardly unique in being self-righteous, though. One usually calls it “snobbery” when Europeans practice it, and my friends from elsewhere in the world do tend to have a stick up their rears when their own countries are under discussion.
Self-righteousness has lots to do with how leaders address their nations – but it has little to do with how countries make policy. Given that self-righteousness is as universal as (and related to?) tribalism, blaming American policy failures on that feeling is pretty ridiculous.
It’s not worth seriously addressing your ideas about Europe. Remember, the UK is the country with a nationalized surveillance system, and France is, AFAIK, the only Western country to ban hijabs.
Incidentally, why would you give a shit about “starting wars”? There are undoubtedly worse things. China’s treatment of its own citizens is an order of magnitude worse than America’s treatment of foreign nationals – and as I hope I made clear, the worst regimes today are largely being backed by China, much as the US is poor in this regard as well. They are, in fact, getting worse, not better – and the local human rights situation is a mixed bag. The Tibetan Crisis makes it clear that China will continue to pursue USSR-style attempts at ethnic cleansing, the Falun Gong is a relatively recent development, and most of China’s human rights campaigners are still in prison.
To say Canada is equally responsible for Guantanamo is , well, strange…
I have said I condemn Canada and Europe and all countries for not denouncing Guantanamo more forcefully (even though it has been oficially condemned by the EU). But to say that makes them equally responsible is just silly.
And I condemn them in whatever measure they do not respect due process of law and human rights but I am not aware of anything even close to what is happening in America. In Spain the terrorists who bombed the trains in 2004 were given a fair trial with all judicial guarantees. If there are cases in UK, Australia or France where human rights are not being respected I am not aware of them If they exist and you bring them to my attention I will promptly and inequivocally condemn them.
I have clearly said I condemn any and all infringement of Human Rights and I condemn that one too. (I am a Human Rights Watch supporter) On the other hand it is silly to even compare that to the misery and destruction which the USA has spread around the world. Chile and Argentina are specially poignant cases because many thousands of refugees from the American-backed dictatorships went to Spain were they had to start new lives having lost everything, including family members. Many are still trying to find relatives. Some had their babies stolen. The whole thing was very sad and has left deep scars in those countries and cultures. Today their governments may be infringing Human Rights in the name of this stupid “war on terror” but that is with pressure and encouragement of the USA not against the wishes of the USA. I condemn them all in whatever measure they are responsible.
What? I have never heard of this. Can we have some credible cite? All I remember is the CIA kidnapped someone in Italy to be tortured in some Arab country and Some CIA operatives are wanted and fugitives from Italian justice.
It is America who likes to think it is in the cultural league of western countries and culture and they like to think they are somehow the leaders. Now, If America believes they are outside of western culture and in a league of their own, like China, then that’s another argument altogether. I believe America belongs in western culture and I expect America to abide by western values.
I also resent being labeled as a mindless anti-american because it simply is not true. I am condemning specific actions and I really wish I did not have to. Anyone who has read my posts over the many years I have posted here knows I am a believer and defender of free markets and personal freedoms, things for which America is supposed to stand for. I am condemning specific actions and I challenge anyone to find any anti-American sentiment in any of my posts before all this mess started.
I think it was sometime in 2001 that my girlfriend said GWB was a fool and an idiot and I defended him and we got in an argument and I said “well, if you are so clever why aren’t YOU the president of the USA?”. She has never let me forget that and often rubs my nose in it. It is now quite obvious that she or anyone else would make a better president.
You can probably find posts of mine here from early 2001 defending Bush. I remember posting in early 2003 that there was no way Bush could be so stupid as to go to war in Iraq. I really believed it.
But when a guy and a country go nuts I part company. I am not a fanatic follower of anyone or anything. I call them as I see them.
Sorry, I tried to respond to this over the weekend, but kept getting database errors.
Tables/graphs showing foreign development aid spending per capita pretty consistently put the US between 17th and 20th place, or thereabouts. Here’s a good one - it adjusts for debt forgiveness and other stuff which doesn’t normally count as development aid:
(there’s a link at the top to a .pdf - scroll to p. 37.)