# Is America in the right on the steel tarrifs fight with the EU? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 11, 2003, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-in-the-right-on-the-steel-tarrifs-fight-with-the-eu/212560 "2003-11-11T05:45:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-in-the-right-on-the-steel-tarrifs-fight-with-the-eu/212560/21 "2003-11-12T04:06:50Z")
Everyone loses in this kind of situation IMO…at least everyone directly involved. Economies are too interwoven today to do this…its like shooting yourself in the foot (or the dick as the case may be). The US is way wrong to be catering to their steel industry…and the EU is wrong to try and punish them without trying whatever it takes to avoid such measure first. Mark my word, nothing good will come of this for anyone. (Sorry, I just always wanted to say “Mark my word”. :)). -XT ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-in-the-right-on-the-steel-tarrifs-fight-with-the-eu/212560/22 "2003-11-12T05:19:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magiver \* > I don’t think it is kosher that EU would deliberately interfere in US politics by targeting swing states. I say this because I don’t think France or Germany would appreciate US attempts to influence their elections. Finally! After 50 years the first green shoots of a ethical US foreign policy. Lets club together and send **magiver** to Iraq to preach the SDMB 'Non-Interference Doctrine’ to the ‘Provisional American Authority’ and then . . . how about a world tour to all those old friends of the CIA in Central America, Asia, Africa, South America. It’s all a little _ex post facto_ but I’m sure the folks would welcome him with open arms! ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-in-the-right-on-the-steel-tarrifs-fight-with-the-eu/212560/23 "2003-11-12T08:05:46Z")
It’s good to see our European brethren joining forces to help defeat Bush. If only they’d done it 4 years earlier… ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-in-the-right-on-the-steel-tarrifs-fight-with-the-eu/212560/24 "2003-11-12T08:13:28Z")
Excuse my ignorance if I’m completely off, but I’d read that the whole reason behind the tarriffs was because the EU was using subsidies and market saturation to artificially lower the price of EU steel to drive out US competition. The government subsidized the manufacturing, so they were able to make a profit by building up a lot of steel and then introducing it all to the US market at once, driving prices down - and the US made steel couldn’t compete. So it was sold as government protection against foreign government interference in the market. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-in-the-right-on-the-steel-tarrifs-fight-with-the-eu/212560/25 "2003-11-12T09:09:15Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by neurotik_ > **I thought Euros didn’t like the peanut butter/chocolate combo.** It’s growing on us - we have the UK-produced Star Bar, which is sorta kinda like a Reeses Nutrageous. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ruadh \* > \*\*Never mind that, I just want jjimm to tell me where in Cabra you can get Reese’s Peanut Butter Cups :eek: \*\* Alas not Cabra - local to my office I mean - the Spar on College Green. My local convenience store in Cabra got burned down by some $%&^s with fireworks. :mad: Apologies for hijack. Here’s my contribution to the debate. Steel tariffs: protectionist, anticompetitive, anti free-market, leading to trade war with erstwhile allies = bad. However, **SenorBeef** , I’d be interested to see the details of what you’re saying. I thought it was caused by Eastern European steel, but that doesn’t explain why they’re targeting the EU, so maybe there’s something in what you say. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-in-the-right-on-the-steel-tarrifs-fight-with-the-eu/212560/26 "2003-11-12T12:33:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*Finally! After 50 years the first green shoots of a ethical US foreign policy. > > Lets club together and send **magiver** to Iraq to preach the SDMB 'Non-Interference Doctrine’ to the ‘Provisional American Authority’ and then . . . how about a world tour to all those old friends of the CIA in Central America, Asia, Africa, South America. It’s all a little _ex post facto_ but I’m sure the folks would welcome him with open arms! \*\* Because no European government has ever interfered with a third world nation’s politics in the last 50 years.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-in-the-right-on-the-steel-tarrifs-fight-with-the-eu/212560/27 "2003-11-12T12:48:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*Because no European government has ever interfered with a third world nation’s politics in the last 50 years.:rolleyes: \*\* [Tu coque](http://seercom.com/bcs/resources/criticalthinking/irf.tucoque.html). ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-in-the-right-on-the-steel-tarrifs-fight-with-the-eu/212560/28 "2003-11-12T13:06:31Z")
> [@](#): > > _smiling bandit_ > I also think it may be a deliberate trade war. Its entirely possible that Bush will use this as an excuse to force certain European nations to drop their own tariffs in exchange. Maybe. Another (still unlikely IMHO but _highly_ undesireable) possiblity is that the multilateralism that has underpinned the whole thinking of the WTO and before it the GATT will fall apart and be replaced by bilateralism and regional blocs. There is some evidence of this in the US going after preferential trade deals and the abject failure at Cancun (not that the US is solely to blame for that). ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-in-the-right-on-the-steel-tarrifs-fight-with-the-eu/212560/29 "2003-11-12T13:53:32Z")
> [@](#): > > This I didn’t know; cite please for “certain European nations” having tariffs not permitted by the normally US friendly WTO ? Oh, they are _legal_ tariffs, particularly on food products, and the US businesses hate them. But we’ve never had any leverage to get them eliminated. Actually, not too long ago, the US put an offer on the table to eliminate certain American subsidies if the Euros dropped their advantages. The Euros backed out at the last minute when they realized we weren’t bluffing, or least didn’t consider it an important bluff. So, I rather enjoy free trade, but I would think this is a nice way of getting it. Ironic, but perhaps effective. And of course, its not like Bush could get the Euros to like him even if he pledged his support to ANSWER and proposed a three-way between himself, Chirac, and Schroeder. And of course, if they start a trade war now, they’ll be sinking their economy rather painfully. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-in-the-right-on-the-steel-tarrifs-fight-with-the-eu/212560/30 "2003-11-12T14:14:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SenorBeef \* > Excuse my ignorance if I’m completely off, but I’d read that the whole reason behind the tarriffs was because the EU was using subsidies and market saturation to artificially lower the price of EU steel to drive out US competition. > > The government subsidized the manufacturing, so they were able to make a profit by building up a lot of steel and then introducing it all to the US market at once, driving prices down - and the US made steel couldn’t compete. So it was sold as government protection against foreign government interference in the market. Something along those lines is what the USA might have aduced in its defense but the WTO wasn’t buying it and ruled against the USA. I do not understand the notion that the USA implemented the tariffs in order to get concessions from the Europeans and it sounds more like ignorance of how WTO works. The WTO ruled against the USA and authorized Europe and other countries to put tariffs on American products. The USA is not getting any concessions from Europe nor can it by doing this. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-in-the-right-on-the-steel-tarrifs-fight-with-the-eu/212560/31 "2003-11-12T17:49:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*Because no European government has ever interfered with a third world nation’s politics in the last 50 years.:rolleyes: \*\* of course they have, and any right thinking person has slated them for it. just like the US is being slated for this tariff. It’s raised 650 million dollars for the federal coffers and created 5000 jobs in the Steel industry. However its going to hurt steel using industries to the tune of 25,000 jobs and increased prices passed on to the consumer. If its not removed before the election, lets see how that Pans out in Ohio and Michigan. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-in-the-right-on-the-steel-tarrifs-fight-with-the-eu/212560/32 "2003-11-12T20:03:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*[Tu coque](http://seercom.com/bcs/resources/criticalthinking/irf.tucoque.html). \*\* Doesn’t apply to my comment, except superficially. If you’re going to make snotty comments in a my-country-is-holier-than-yours tone, expect to get called on it and have your country’s skeletons pulled out of the same closet. I never justified nor excused US participation in various coups around the globe during the Cold War, on the basis that other states did it, too. Merely a comment on **L\_C** ’s typical sanctimonious and off-topic anti-US sniping. But congratulations on putting on a pretense of being learned. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by TwistofFate_ > **just like the US is being slated for this tariff.** As I’ve already stated a few posts up, I agree that the US is being rightly knocked for the tariff - that’s not the issue my comment was in response to. (See above). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-in-the-right-on-the-steel-tarrifs-fight-with-the-eu/212560/33 "2003-11-13T01:32:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*Finally! After 50 years the first green shoots of a ethical US foreign policy. > > Lets club together and send **magiver** to Iraq to preach the SDMB 'Non-Interference Doctrine’ to the ‘Provisional American Authority’ and then . . . how about a world tour to all those old friends of the CIA in Central America, Asia, Africa, South America. It’s all a little _ex post facto_ but I’m sure the folks would welcome him with open arms! \*\* Nice! Are you comparing Europe with Iraq? Would you really like to walk down the road of European imperialism and colonization? There isn’t a country in the Mid-East that doesn’t have a history of Euro flags stuck in every crack and crevice. Every border that is marked off is a European fabrication. When you speak of non-interference doctrines you do not speak from historic experience. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-in-the-right-on-the-steel-tarrifs-fight-with-the-eu/212560/34 "2003-11-13T03:16:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magiver \* > \*\*Nice! Are you comparing Europe with Iraq? Would you really like to walk down the road of European imperialism and colonization? There isn’t a country in the Mid-East that doesn’t have a history of Euro flags stuck in every crack and crevice. Every border that is marked off is a European fabrication. When you speak of non-interference doctrines you do not speak from historic experience. \*\* On the contrary, **LC** _does_ speak from historic experience, coming from a place which has a long interventionist (if that’s really the term for British colonialism) policies. If Americans (and here I speak institutionally, as it were, and not referring to individual Americans) were wiser, they’d take the lesson the Europeans have from that interventionist past, instead of repeating all the same old mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-in-the-right-on-the-steel-tarrifs-fight-with-the-eu/212560/35 "2003-11-13T10:55:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*Doesn’t apply to my comment, except superficially. If you’re going to make snotty comments in a my-country-is-holier-than-yours tone, expect to get called on it and have your country’s skeletons pulled out of the same closet. \*\* Sorry, could you quote where **London\_Calling** did this? I can’t see it in this thread. Us Brits are perfectly aware of the sins committed in the name of our country. Where’s their relevance to this discussion? > [@](#): > > **But congratulations on putting on a pretense of being learned.** I’m quite happy to tell you only learned the phrase and its definition through this board about a year ago. However, I find its use entirely appropriate in this instance. If you call that “pretense of being learned” then it appears you’re assuming motivations that aren’t there - a bit like your response to **London\_Calling**. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-in-the-right-on-the-steel-tarrifs-fight-with-the-eu/212560/36 "2003-11-13T12:36:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > **Sorry, could you quote where London\_Calling did this? I can’t see it in this thread.** I quoted it. > [@](#): > > **Us Brits are perfectly aware of the sins committed in the name of our country. Where’s their relevance to this discussion?** Where’s the relevance to the CIA in this discussion? > [@](#): > > \*\*I’m quite happy to tell you only learned the phrase and its definition through this board about a year ago. However, I find its use entirely appropriate in this instance. If you call that “pretense of being learned” then it appears you’re assuming motivations that aren’t there - a bit like your response to **London\_Calling**. \*\* My assumption is dead on with regards to **L\_C**. ---
**Author:** ![Donovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ea666f/32.png) [@Donovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donovan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-in-the-right-on-the-steel-tarrifs-fight-with-the-eu/212560/37 "2003-11-13T12:57:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Doesn’t apply to my comment, except superficially. If you’re going to make snotty comments in a my-country-is-holier-than-yours tone, expect to get called on it and have your country’s skeletons pulled out of the same closet. I never justified nor excused US participation in various coups around the globe during the Cold War, on the basis that other states did it, too. Merely a comment on L\_C’s typical sanctimonious and off-topic anti-US sniping. hrmm… reread the London Calling Post three times now, and I keep missing the part where he said ‘unlike my country’ or ‘my country has an impeccable foreign relations record’, or something of that sort. Could you point it out to me? ---
**Author:** ![Blown\_Injected](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@Blown\_Injected](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blown_Injected)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-in-the-right-on-the-steel-tarrifs-fight-with-the-eu/212560/38 "2003-11-13T13:21:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > \*\*Pure political pandering. Remember the US slapped steel tariffs on China what 12-24 months ago. Again unintended consequences. May have helped the US steel industry remain uncompetitive, but hurt manufacturers in the US dependant on the high priced US steel. A buddy of mine that manufactures gearboxes and trailor hitches in China for export, suddenly became by far the low cost producer and US exports quadrupled. So, saved a couple of uncompetitive steel industry jobs and put a lot more people making gearboxes out of work. > > I have zero sympathy for the US steel industry. They have had chance after chance in the past decades to get competitive and didn’t. It’s a lot more socialist than the steel industry in China. \*\* How much are the labor costs in China? It is my impression that the workers get next to nothing; no savings plans, health, and very low wages. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-in-the-right-on-the-steel-tarrifs-fight-with-the-eu/212560/39 "2003-11-13T15:27:07Z")
Everyone knows the ‘Irish Troubles’ have nothing to do with the Bits. In just the same way Belgium had nothing to do with that nasty little business in the Congo, or the French in North Africa, etc, etc, etc. What any of that has to do with this, I have no idea. My pretty uncomplicated point is, if you dish out the shit for decades, it’s a little rich to start whining (“it’s not kosher”) at the mere suggestion that someone might just do something infinitely less significant in your backyard. Big boys don’t cry, big-girls-blouse and all that; especially when the world body (you’re signed up to as arbitrator) says you’re well out of order - and on which, just about everyone in this thread is in agreement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-in-the-right-on-the-steel-tarrifs-fight-with-the-eu/212560.md?page=1)