# Is America or Europe More Racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 27, 2015, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-or-europe-more-racist/726293 "2015-07-27T03:40:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-or-europe-more-racist/726293/1 "2015-07-27T03:40:43Z")
Every now and then, this meme arises; racism is so common in the US and ol’ tolerant Europe its not. I take serious issue with this idea: first off, America elected an ethnic minority member President. I don’t see a Basque or Galician leading Spain, or am ethnic Turk leader Germany. Two, while yes blacks have it rough here; Europe doesn’t have many blacks (tho its former colonies do). It is true the US once had slavery; the Europeans also did but simply did it on the continent to the south of them. And last; we didn’t carry out pogroms or the Holocaust; or countless other ethnic cleansing in recent history. What happened with the aboriginals wasn’t too different from how ethnic Russians went from Kievan Rus to Vladivostok, so I reject the attempt to call the fate of the American aborginals a “genocide.” My take on this. Flame on! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-or-europe-more-racist/726293/2 "2015-07-27T04:04:47Z")
Racists suck ass on every continent. And beyond that casual observation, I daresay that while it’s easy to rack up atrocity scores for each, I don’t know how you’d prove which was the “winner”. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-or-europe-more-racist/726293/3 "2015-07-27T04:09:06Z")
I can’t speak for Europe at large, but yeah, racism is pretty rampant here in France. The targets are different (obviously while we don’t have much concern over Latinos, we can hatefully spite at North Africans with the worst of them) but the gist of it and the “arguments” of racist spokespersons are largely the same. > [@](#): > > And last; we didn’t carry out pogroms or the Holocaust; or countless other ethnic cleansing in recent history. _cough_ Native Americans _cough_ > [@](#): > > What happened with the aboriginals wasn’t too different from how ethnic Russians went from Kievan Rus to Vladivostok Um, yes ? I’m sorry, is that supposed to make it less reprehensible ? There’s only ~45,000 Nenets people left. I’m happy to call that a genocide, too. From [wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_Siberia) : > [@](#): > > In the 17th century, indigenous peoples of the Amur region were attacked by Russians who came to be known as “red-beards”.[[10]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_Siberia#cite_note-10) The Russian Cossacks were named luocha (羅剎), [rakshasa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakshasa), after demons found in Buddhist mythology, by the Amur natives because of their cruelty towards the Amur tribes people, who were subjects of the [Qing dynasty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_dynasty) during the [Sino–Russian border conflicts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino%E2%80%93Russian_border_conflicts).[[11]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_Siberia#cite_note-11) The [Aleuts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleuts) in the [Aleutians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleutians) were subjected to genocide and slavery by the Russians for the first 20 years of Russian rule, with the Aleut women and children captured by the Russians and Aleut men slaughtered.[[12]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_Siberia#cite_note-12) > The regionalist oblastniki in the 19th century among the Russians in Siberia acknowledged that the natives were subjected to immense genocidal cruelty by the Russian colonization, and claimed that they would rectify the situation with their proposed regionalist polices.[[13]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_Siberia#cite_note-FOOTNOTEWood201189-90-13) The Russians used “slaughter, alcoholism and disease” to bring the natives under their control, who were soon left in misery, and much of the evidence of their extermination has itself been destroyed by the Russians, with only a few artifacts documenting their presence remaining in Russian museums and collections.[[14]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_Siberia#cite_note-14) Sounds about par for the 18th century course. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-or-europe-more-racist/726293/4 "2015-07-27T04:21:13Z")
There was a period during the 1960s when one would occasionally encounter a pundit, (usually from Europe), sniffing their nose at the shabby racist culture of the U.S. I have not heard anyone make that sort of claim in many, many years. Certainly not since immigration to Europe began bringing more African and Asian immigrants. Are there any citations of a person, (preferably subsequent to 1980, or so), actually claiming that one society or the other is less racist? ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-or-europe-more-racist/726293/5 "2015-07-27T04:33:39Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > There was a period during the 1960s when one would occasionally encounter a pundit, (usually from Europe), sniffing their nose at the shabby racist culture of the U.S. > > I have not heard anyone make that sort of claim in many, many years. Certainly not since immigration to Europe began bringing more African and Asian immigrants. > > Are there any citations of a person, (preferably subsequent to 1980, or so), actually claiming that one society or the other is less racist? I think this article demonstrates what [I mean](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/04/europe-sees-history-of-american-racism-in-trayvon-martin-killing/255362/). ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-or-europe-more-racist/726293/6 "2015-07-27T06:04:28Z")
Could be melding together of stereotypes. Some on the American left see Europe as a model due to health care, gun laws, secularism, etc, etc. Seems a small jump from “Europe has democratic socialist tendencies that I like” to “Europe has other tendencies, such as anti-racism, that I like.” Isn’t there very blatant racism towards black soccer players in Europe? If I remember correctly, some black players have been pelted with bananas. I can’t imagine that happening at a major sporting event in the US in 2015. ---
**Author:** ![blue\_infinity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_infinity/32/2817_2.png) [@blue\_infinity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blue_infinity)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-or-europe-more-racist/726293/7 "2015-07-27T06:28:53Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I don’t see a Basque or Galician leading Spain How about the current Prime Minister, Mariano Rajoy: > [@](#): > > Born 27 March 1955 in Santiago de Compostela, A Coruña, **Galicia** , Rajoy is the grandson of Enrique Rajoy Leloup, one of the architects of the Statute of **Autonomy of Galicia** Or the one a couple before that, Jose Maria Aznar: > [@](#): > > Aznar, born in Madrid in 1953, was the son of Manuel Aznar Acedo, army official, journalist and radio broadcaster, and grandson of Manuel Aznar Zubigaray, a former \*\*Basque \*\*nationalist broadcaster I bet there’s a whole lot of things you don’t see. In fact I bet you go a fair distance out of your way not to see things you don’t want to see. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-or-europe-more-racist/726293/8 "2015-07-27T06:42:35Z")
AS Bryan Ekers said, I don’t see how you declare a winner. If you’d like some discussion points: - Europe is far more varied than the USA (languages, culture, history) - I think the US has a larger proportion of blacks in jail - I think the US has a larger proportion of blacks shot by police ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-or-europe-more-racist/726293/9 "2015-07-27T06:59:57Z")
> [@glee](#): > > AS Bryan Ekers said, I don’t see how you declare a winner. > > If you’d like some discussion points: > > - Europe is far more varied than the USA (languages, culture, history) Among different European ethnicities, virtually all of which would be considered “white”. > [@](#): > > - I think the US has a larger proportion of blacks in jail > - I think the US has a larger proportion of blacks shot by police Europe has a small proportion of population jailed or shot by police in general. This map is quite helpful: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-or-europe-more-racist/726293/10 "2015-07-27T07:04:59Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Among different European ethnicities, virtually all of which would be considered “white”. According to American definitions. But if we’re talking about Europe, shouldn’t we be using the European definitions of race? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-or-europe-more-racist/726293/11 "2015-07-27T07:36:56Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Among different European ethnicities, virtually all of which would be considered “white”.[URL=“[https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/)”] I seem to recall at least one guy who notoriously managed to draw a number of racial lines among this uniform sea of “white”. Dour sort of fellow, no sense of humour, kind of screechy, name’s on the tip of my tongue, rhymes with “butler”… ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-or-europe-more-racist/726293/12 "2015-07-27T07:43:40Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > According to American definitions. But if we’re talking about Europe, shouldn’t we be using the European definitions of race? In most European community conflicts the groups involved are conceptualized in terms of ethnicity not race. ---
**Author:** ![Uniqueorn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uniqueorn/32/2807_2.png) [@Uniqueorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uniqueorn)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-or-europe-more-racist/726293/13 "2015-07-27T08:01:35Z")
> [@Mops](#): > > In most European community conflicts the groups involved are conceptualized in terms of ethnicity not race. I agree. In my experience, “racists” in Europe don’t care that much about which race you are, but whether you identify with the local social, cultural and national standards. Kind of like the joke from Asterix: “I don’t mind foreigners, but these foreigners are not from around here!” ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-or-europe-more-racist/726293/14 "2015-07-27T08:13:23Z")
> [@Mops](#): > > In most European community conflicts the groups involved are conceptualized in terms of ethnicity not race. That’s true, but in practical terms - at least for the purpose of this discussion - there isn’t much difference between the two, is there? If some people are hated because they’re black and other people are hated because they’re Roma, it makes little difference to them that the first is a “race” and the second is an “ethnicity”. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-or-europe-more-racist/726293/15 "2015-07-27T08:54:10Z")
> [@blue\_infinity](#): > > Or the one a couple before that, Jose Maria Aznar: By Spanish standards, we don’t normally consider someone to be Basque (or French, or Indian) because his lastname happens to be; of Basque ancestry yes, but we wouldn’t consider Aznar Basque. Some nationalist and fascist groups sport a xenophobic streak which defines anybody whose foreparents were born outside the area as eternal outsiders, but it’s not the common mindset and it’s the opposite of what would be Aznar’s case; it’s exclusive of children of inmigrants, not inclusive of children of emigrants. In a way this undermines your proposal, but at the same time, I think it shows that the way we file people “in Europe” doesn’t match the American “kiss me I’m Irish” of people whose only relation to the Emerald Isle is their lastname. The definitions involved are very different, so are the relationships behind those definitions. And I know this is something that is normally done this way in English but the article you linked calls the president’s father a “Basque nationalist”. He wasn’t, not in the sense in which the word nationalist is normally used. He was a falangist, part of the so-called _nacional_ side which for some reason gets translated into English as nationalist. The actual Basque nationalists were on the other side of the war. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-or-europe-more-racist/726293/16 "2015-07-27T09:01:07Z")
ETA: worse, the one who gets called a nationalist in the quote is the traditionalist grandfather, who probably would have burst a few veins at getting such an apellative. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-or-europe-more-racist/726293/17 "2015-07-27T10:45:10Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I think this article demonstrates what [I mean](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/04/europe-sees-history-of-american-racism-in-trayvon-martin-killing/255362/). I see the accusation of racism. I see nothing to indicate that the Europeans, generally, think that they are beyond such attitudes or that racism is more prevalent in the U.S. (I would not be surprised to discover a certain amount of “Look at them!” in European attitudes, but that is not really the same thing as saying that the U.S. has a problem and that Europe does not.) ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-or-europe-more-racist/726293/18 "2015-07-27T11:07:43Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Among different European ethnicities, virtually all of which would be considered “white”. And white being your singular most important distinction? You are applying American standards to Europe, Europe works by different distinctions that the USA. I can assure you, as a European, we know the difference between Danes, Swedes, French, Poles, Russians, Italians, Spaniards, Serbs, etc. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-or-europe-more-racist/726293/19 "2015-07-27T15:24:28Z")
another point: no state or federal parliamentary body in the US has neo-nazis (or for that matter, communists) sitting in them; Europe has that all over. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-or-europe-more-racist/726293/20 "2015-07-27T16:09:56Z")
Are we comparing “Country vs. Continent” or “Continent vs. Continent”? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-or-europe-more-racist/726293.md?page=2)