# Is America Overcriminalized? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-overcriminalized/709227 "2015-01-07T15:34:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-overcriminalized/709227/1 "2015-01-07T15:34:22Z")
[http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/overcriminalization-of-america-113991\_full.html#.VK1OMLHnbct](http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/overcriminalization-of-america-113991_full.html#.VK1OMLHnbct) Basic tenant of the article is that the proliferation of federal and state criminal laws (via overzealous legislatures developing excessive criminal penalties that don’t necessarily fit the crime) has resulted in the United States becoming overcriminalized. The US only accounts for 5% of the world population but we hold 25% of the world’s prisoners. The authors (Charles Koch and Mark Holden) propose the following points as reform: 1. > [@](#): > > Criminal laws should not impose liability if the accused did not knowingly and willfully intend to commit the bad act. 1. > [@](#): > > address prosecutorial abuses – especially in the discovery and grand jury processes. 1. > [@](#): > > all those charged with a crime receive their Sixth Amendment right to representation by a lawyer. 1. > [@](#): > > eliminating mandatory minimum sentences that dictate punishment unrelated to the nature or harm of the underlying crime and facts. 1. > [@](#): > > after a sentence is served, we should restore all rights to youthful and non-violent offenders A pretty simple piece with a lot of common sense. Our political culture tends to favor “hard on crime” platforms and agendas. Many people care for their safety and such platforms win support. Follow through by legislatures assessing criminal penalties for similar things that other nations believe are dubious :dubious: show that they have followed through on their agendas and garner re-election votes. This type of change I expect will be harder to accomplish for the reasons asserted above. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-overcriminalized/709227/2 "2015-01-07T15:39:24Z")
I’m on board with all of these reforms, although #2 is a bit squishy. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-overcriminalized/709227/3 "2015-01-07T15:46:47Z")
#1 is terrible–a license for people to do any amount of harm through wanton carelessness and reckless indifference to the rights and safety of others. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-overcriminalized/709227/4 "2015-01-07T15:56:28Z")
Eh? They’d still be civilly liable. Though I think you misunderstand what the authors are saying. > [@](#): > > This explosion of criminal laws has led to imposing liability on activities that ordinary citizens would have no reason to believe would be criminal such as converting a wild donkey into a private donkey, bathing in the Arkansas Hot Springs National Park without a doctor’s note, and agreeing to take mail to the post office but not dropping it off. It has led to criminal liability for amateur arrowhead collectors who had no idea their hobby could be a federal crime, as well as criminal charges and a conviction for a former Indianapolis 500 champion who got lost while snowmobiling during a blizzard and unwittingly ended up on federal land. > > Read more: [http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/overcriminalization-of-america-113991.html#ixzz3O9SpWmjF](http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/overcriminalization-of-america-113991.html#ixzz3O9SpWmjF) ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-overcriminalized/709227/5 "2015-01-07T16:08:12Z")
Yeah, I’m not sure how #1 works out. Most of the anecdotes from RNATB’s post appear ridiculous but how many people are in prisons from those sorts of “crimes”? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-overcriminalized/709227/6 "2015-01-07T16:26:28Z")
I don’t think the focus there is necessarily keeping people out of jail or whatever so much as it is eliminating solutions for problems that don’t exist from the statute books. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-overcriminalized/709227/7 "2015-01-07T16:31:57Z")
Just end the war on drugs. That’s most of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-overcriminalized/709227/8 "2015-01-07T16:40:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Eh? They’d still be civilly liable. Though I think you misunderstand what the authors are saying. The classic example of Number 1 is vehicular homicide while driving drunk. Clearly the driver did not intend to kill anyone. But you think it is satisfactory that the only punishment is that the guy’s auto insurance is going to pay for the death–since he will be civilly liable–and maybe his rates will go up? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-overcriminalized/709227/9 "2015-01-07T16:41:00Z")
You seem to misunderstand them too. Driving drunk is a knowing, willful violation of the law itself. #3 is a big deal. I doubt 1 in 10 people know that there is no (federal) constitutional guarantee of the right to counsel in state misdemeanor prosecutions. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-overcriminalized/709227/10 "2015-01-07T16:42:58Z")
America imprisons more people, per capita, than Cuba (they’re second in the world, with Russia and Rwanda coming a bit behind). Given that Cuban law allows you to be imprisoned for up to four years _without having committed any crime at all_, that’s really pretty impressive, and not in a good way. ---
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-overcriminalized/709227/11 "2015-01-07T16:50:55Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > [http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/overcriminalization-of-america-113991\_full.html#.VK1OMLHnbct](http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/overcriminalization-of-america-113991_full.html#.VK1OMLHnbct) > > Basic tenant of the article is that the proliferation of federal and state criminal laws (via overzealous legislatures developing excessive criminal penalties that don’t necessarily fit the crime) has resulted in the United States becoming overcriminalized. The US only accounts for 5% of the world population but we hold 25% of the world’s prisoners. > > The authors (Charles Koch and Mark Holden) propose the following points as reform: > > 1. > 2. > 3. > 4. > 5. > > A pretty simple piece with a lot of common sense. Our political culture tends to favor “hard on crime” platforms and agendas. Many people care for their safety and such platforms win support. Follow through by legislatures assessing criminal penalties for similar things that other nations believe are dubious :dubious: show that they have followed through on their agendas and garner re-election votes. > > This type of change I expect will be harder to accomplish for the reasons asserted above. 1. To be prosecutable in the criminal courts, an action must have violated the peace, safety, or property of another individual. No victim, no prosecution. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-overcriminalized/709227/12 "2015-01-07T16:55:24Z")
So stealing government property is okay? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-overcriminalized/709227/13 "2015-01-07T17:04:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So stealing government property is okay? 😉 Why would it be? Stealing from the government is the same as stealing from every person who pays taxes. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-overcriminalized/709227/14 "2015-01-07T17:41:34Z")
Charles Koch, THE Charles Koch proposed this? I’d have to question his underlying motive then, he’s probably trying to get away with something. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-overcriminalized/709227/15 "2015-01-07T17:42:35Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Basic tenant of the article… In the interest of mutual aid, I have to point out that the word is “tenet.” **Tenants** live in buildings, and are expected to obey the **tenets** of their leases. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-overcriminalized/709227/16 "2015-01-07T18:26:13Z")
Whoah. It really is _that_ Charles Koch. I assumed it was some researcher or law professor. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-overcriminalized/709227/17 "2015-01-07T18:43:12Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > he’s probably trying to get away with something. Considering he’s aligned with the ACLU and George Soros on this issue, hell might be freezing over for some. Holden was quoted in a NYT article back in November: [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/07/us/aclu-in-dollar50-million-push-to-reduce-jail-sentences.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/07/us/aclu-in-dollar50-million-push-to-reduce-jail-sentences.html?_r=0) > [@NYT](#): > > “Whether the human cost or the societal cost, what we’re doing in the criminal justice system isn’t working,” Mr. Holden said. “We’re _finding common ground with people with different political affiliations_,” he said, praising the advocacy work of the A.C.L.U. in this field. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-overcriminalized/709227/18 "2015-01-07T18:45:45Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Driving drunk is a knowing, willful violation of the law itself. Prove it was willful. That’s what any good defense attorney is going to say, and with good reason- plenty of people may underestimate the amount of alcohol they’ve had, either through inattention, inaccurate drink-making, or something else, as well as underestimating its effects- due to food, medications, etc… TL;DR- someone could easily legally drive drunk with no intention to break the law. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-overcriminalized/709227/19 "2015-01-07T18:51:06Z")
> [@bump](#): > > legally drive drunk 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-overcriminalized/709227/20 "2015-01-07T18:56:28Z")
As others have noted, I have questions about the knowing and willful intent issue. It seems like a huge gray area that could go anywhere from eliminating a few meaningless misdemeanors to opening a loophole that would make it virtually impossible to convict anyone of any crime. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-overcriminalized/709227.md?page=2)