# Is America Really Backward Compared to the Rest of the West **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2010, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329 "2010-03-13T05:30:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/261 "2010-03-22T03:59:40Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > It’s significant that none of these rightward-moving countries are going to get anywhere near adopting the current U.S. system in certain key respects, such as health care policies. So saying that they’re moving rightward doesn’t really make a case. Really? By 2012, compared to the U.S. Canada will have: - A less progressive personal income tax system. - A smaller government as a percentage of GDP - Lower business taxes - Lower dividend and capital gains taxes - A smaller deficit by far - Less debt - Fewer business regulations - A completely solvent retirement system Canada - the right-wing alternative in North America. Who’da thunk it? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/262 "2010-03-22T05:10:49Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Ironically that’s true. The rest of the West is growing more conservative (Cameron, Merkel, Sarkozy, Harper) but the US is trying to emulate the social democratic Europe. I’m sorry but I really do not think you would like many of their “conservative” ideas. [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/22/world/europe/22france.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/22/world/europe/22france.html) > [@](#): > > PARIS — President Nicolas Sarkozy met with party leaders on Sunday night to discuss how to respond to a severe defeat in regional elections, in which his majority party was defeated in 21 of 22 mainland regions, retaining a majority only in Alsace. > > The defeat was expected after a first round of voting a week ago, especially after the opposition Socialist Party and its allies made common cause with the Europe Ecology party, running on joint party lists, but it stung nonetheless. > > Mr. Sarkozy is scheduled to meet Monday morning with Prime Minister François Fillon, who is expected to announce his government’s resignation, but be reappointed as prime minister with a shuffled cabinet as a response to voter unhappiness. > > Mr. Sarkozy has already said that he will slow down the pace of structural changes, concentrating on a needed pension overhaul. The leader of his party in the National Assembly, Jean-François Copé, called Sunday for a “return to our fundamentals” while recognizing “a real defeat” in the regional vote, the last national election before the presidential race of 2012. > > … > > Mr. Sarkozy has done well, however, on the international stage, and next year he will, with France, take over the chairmanship of the Group of 20, the main international economic gathering of leaders. **He has said he will press for a global tax on financial transactions, progress on climate change and an effort to replace the dollar as the world’s reserve currency.** A good performance would help him reposition himself for the 2012 election. Of course, the first part of the quote was to point also that it is not clear, at least in France, that they are growing more conservative. ---
**Author:** ![\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/eada6e/32.png) [@\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Undecided_Adrian)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/263 "2010-03-22T10:09:04Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I’m sorry but I really do not think you would like many of their “conservative” ideas. > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/22/world/europe/22france.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/22/world/europe/22france.html) > > Of course, the first part of the quote was to point also that it is not clear, at least in France, that they are growing more conservative. The same is true for Germany. The SPD lost the last elections because they made cuts to welfare and unemployment with their Agenda 2010. The CDU has moved significantly to the left, and a new party to the left of the SPD has formed. ---
**Author:** ![GreatStuffMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f04885/32.png) [@GreatStuffMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreatStuffMan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/264 "2010-03-22T13:11:05Z")
Yep, it is. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > In Sweden a minister was prosecuted for calling homosexuality a sin. No, he wasn’t. He was prosecuted for saying something along the lines of “sexual abnormalities are cancer tumors on society”. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/265 "2010-03-22T13:54:12Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > All of this is just more evidence to support my contention that liberalism is a restrictive, punitive and intolerent ideology and the one that is the greatest thread to the freedoms we’ve always enjoyed here in the U.S. Having spent many years in academia…I agree with this. While a die hard conservative asshole will try to punish you for differing from his viewpoint…he, IME, will tend to stop at depriving you of a living/career. A very liberal person will ethusiastically throw themselves at getting you fired if you disagree with her. No compassion, no empathy at all. A very conservative will feel you are misguided and wrong if you disagree with them. A very liberal will feel you are evil and need to be destroyed. Don’t get me wrong…I despised the very conservative when I was in academia. However, the very liberal were totalitarian, scary and with out compassion…you know…evil. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/266 "2010-03-22T14:16:12Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Ironically that’s true. The rest of the West is growing more conservative (Cameron, Merkel, Sarkozy, Harper) but the US is trying to emulate the social democratic Europe. Cameron and Merkel would be on the extreme left wing of the Democratic Party so forgive the hell out of us if we’re not overly impressed with this ‘argument’. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/267 "2010-03-22T14:19:03Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I guess power of law is force but that’s the only possibility nowadays. > > Prison farms? Community service? That’s part of my program. you do know you are not a Christian don’t you? However there are a number of philosophies that share your ideas and a fondness for locking people up in camps. They even have snappy uniforms. You should check them out. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/268 "2010-03-22T14:36:04Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > Having spent many years in academia…I agree with this. > > While a die hard conservative asshole will try to punish you for differing from his viewpoint…he, IME, will tend to stop at depriving you of a living/career. A very liberal person will ethusiastically throw themselves at getting you fired if you disagree with her. No compassion, no empathy at all. > > A very conservative will feel you are misguided and wrong if you disagree with them. A very liberal will feel you are evil and need to be destroyed. > > Don’t get me wrong…I despised the very conservative when I was in academia. However, the very liberal were totalitarian, scary and with out compassion…you know…evil. Academia is it’s own world, and cutthroat assholes are cutthroat assholes regardless of politics. While I saw some of what you described in academia, I’ve seen more “throwing themselves at getting you fired” in the private sector, and mostly by conservatives. EDIT: Come to think of it, I’ve seen more attempts to “destroy” people in a homeowners’ association full of conservative people than anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/269 "2010-03-22T15:21:55Z")
I’m glad that the US House has passed the health care bill. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/270 "2010-03-22T16:50:16Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > The moral character of much of America’s peoples have decayed so much only the threat of force of law can deter them from immoral actions. Just so you guys know, from this point on I will be imagining \*\*Curtis \*\*in full Puritan attire at all times. I must say, the buckled hat makes him seem taller - also, more comickal. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/271 "2010-03-22T20:07:16Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > Academia is it’s own world, and cutthroat assholes are cutthroat assholes regardless of politics. While I saw some of what you described in academia, I’ve seen more “throwing themselves at getting you fired” in the private sector, and mostly by conservatives. > > EDIT: Come to think of it, I’ve seen more attempts to “destroy” people in a homeowners’ association full of conservative people than anywhere else. Most likely…the very liberal are in control and the very conservative in a minority. WHat you are saying is that if it were reversed than the very conservative will try to destroy you. If so, I have to agree. However, I have met many in my life who persist in the illusion that the very liberal are somehow ‘nicer’…and I can attest that is definitely NOT true. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/272 "2010-03-22T20:29:25Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > While a die hard conservative asshole will try to punish you for differing from his viewpoint…he, IME, will tend to stop at depriving you of a living/career. A very liberal person will ethusiastically throw themselves at getting you fired if you disagree with her. No compassion, no empathy at all. Retaliatory punishment isn’t trying to deprive someone of a living/career? Very funny definitions you’ve got there. And if the liberal were to try to get someone fired, more than likely they’re conservative, and have no place in academia > [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > A very conservative will feel you are misguided and wrong if you disagree with them. A very liberal will feel you are evil and need to be destroyed. You must be talking about a different set of conservatives that think it’s ok to compromise on abortion, and socialism is simply a different viewpoint. Where are these conservatives you speak of? Can we exchange them with our usual doctor-killing, tea-bagging, gun-brandishing, conservatives? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/273 "2010-03-22T20:34:07Z")
Look at what goes on on the national stage. Some actor or comedian makes an offensive slur and he loses his job. Conservatives don’t have legitimate viewpoints and concerns, they are evil assholes. Either that or dumb, knuckkle-dragging mouthbreathers who don’t know enough to come in out of the rain. These images are everywhere in television talk shows and comedies, in news magazine and newspaper articles and opinion pieces, and implied in the speeches and soundbites of nationally known politicians and other public figures. In Europe, where political correctness has truly run amok, people like Brigette Bardot are fined (and presumably imprisioned if they keep it up) for making relatively benign comments such as that Muslims were “trying to take over France and impose their culture, values, lifestyles” etc. on France and its native people." In France this is considered “hate speech”. I have known of no movement on the part of conservatives to restrict what people can say or to demand the firing and/or social ostracization of people who say things they have deemed impermissible. Look at the hatred around here that gets directed toward people who have money, nice cars and so forth. Or at people who are skeptical of global warming? Or who question liberal economic goals and systems of government. I submit that the world of academia is far from the only place this kind of behavior is rearing its ugly head…though it undoubtedly got its start there. I’ve known tons of perfectly normal, happy, fun-loving people in my day who go off to college and come out four years later as angry, hate-filled radicals pissed off at a wide range of people and issues. It is no mere coincidence that life under the Soviet Union and communist China and other communist regimes was so repressive and punative, with people spying on their neighbors and kids turning in their parents in the classroom over having made some anti-state comment in the privacy of their own homes. Liberalism is an intolerant and hate-filled ideology driven by unquestioned belief in the goodness and right of its own position and the further belief that the only reason people could possibly oppose it is because they are either evil or stupid…or both…and as such deserving of no quarter when it comes to public policy or acceptance by society. I have said before and I’ll say again that the greatest threat to our freedoms and autonomy is liberalism, and that when the day comes when we can no longer call the shots in our own lives and are no longer free to speak our onw minds, it will be the result of liberal ideology and not because of such things as the Patriot Act or warrantless wiretapping. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/274 "2010-03-22T20:41:09Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Where are these conservatives you speak of? Can we exchange them with our usual doctor-killing, tea-bagging, gun-brandishing, conservatives? And here we have my observations made manifest. There are by almost any measure at least eighty million conservatives in this country, and probably more. Now how many of these do you suppose have killed an abortion doctor? Or brandished a gun? Or been a tea-bagger? And besides, what’s wrong with being a tea-bagger? People are supposed to be able to have and voice their own opinions in this country, and yet **YogSosoth’s** comment, one commonly shared around here, clearly indicates he feels there is something so evil or stupid about tea-baggers that they are no better than doctor-killing murderers. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/275 "2010-03-22T21:25:21Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Really? By 2012, compared to the U.S. Canada will have: > > - A less progressive personal income tax system. > - A smaller government as a percentage of GDP > - Lower business taxes > - Lower dividend and capital gains taxes > - A smaller deficit by far > - Less debt > - Fewer business regulations > - A completely solvent retirement system > > Canada - the right-wing alternative in North America. Who’da thunk it? Rightward in fiscal policy matters perhaps - but certainly not moving particularly rightward in terms of social policy. Gay Marriage for example, and having a solvent retirement system (that is run by the government) is not really “rightist”. One could say that much of the movement to fiscal responsibility was begun by Paul Martin as finance minister in Chretien’s liberal government - not exactly right of center. I would argue that fiscal responsibility is neither a right nor left policy platform in Canada at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/276 "2010-03-23T00:05:14Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Retaliatory punishment isn’t trying to deprive someone of a living/career? Very funny definitions you’ve got there. And if the liberal were to try to get someone fired, more than likely they’re conservative, and have no place in academia > > You must be talking about a different set of conservatives that think it’s ok to compromise on abortion, and socialism is simply a different viewpoint. Where are these conservatives you speak of? Can we exchange them with our usual doctor-killing, tea-bagging, gun-brandishing, conservatives? I’m not talking about abortion clinics. I’m talking about someone that tries to get someone fired because they dared question her logic about denying a scholarship because it was supposed to go to a male student…after we had just cheerfully followed instructions giving out countless scholarships that were supposed to go to females only…(private scholarships) …and then tries to get ME fired because I didn’t immediately toss him out of the committee (I was head of the standards and scholarship committee). Now when I mean ‘try to get you fired’ I don’t mean being angry, demanding and making a scene. I’m talking writing letters to the governor demanding your immediately sacking…as well as accreditation institutions, newspapers etc etc etc carried on over years. She was not abnormal. On the other side, when I (and the committee) refused to endorse a phlebotomy (however blood drawing is spelled) because we did not see the point in offering a program whose graduates were going to be hired at minimum wage (but left the door open if they would only offer above minimum wage…). Sigh…that provoked HUGE arguments and community meetings. Biz leaders tried to get me replaced as head of the committee…but not once did they even suggest I should have been sacked. They were angry and thought we were misguided and wrong…but I never had a rep from the governers office calling. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/277 "2010-03-23T02:55:20Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Really? By 2012, compared to the U.S. Canada will have: > > - A less progressive personal income tax system. > - A smaller government as a percentage of GDP > - Lower business taxes > - Lower dividend and capital gains taxes > - A smaller deficit by far > - Less debt > - Fewer business regulations > - A completely solvent retirement system > > Canada - the right-wing alternative in North America. Who’da thunk it? This is a grab bag of cherry picking and glibness. A less progressive personal income tax system? Lower business taxes? Lowere divident and capital gains taxes? - How does it fit in with the entire tax system at all level of government? A smaller government as a percentage of GDP? - How is this some kind of measure of right-wingness? It’s just a random statistic. How does their overall fiscal, economic, and government services system compare as a whole? What kinds of services do they offer? What kinds of services don’t they offer? What kind of guarantees and safety nets do individuals benefit from? And how does any of this fit into a definition of “more right wing”? How much do they pay for education? What is the scope of individual liberties? What is the scope of individual as well as identity based dignity? How are minority races and cultures treated? Immigration? Secular government? I could go on and on for pages. That list up there doesn’t even count as a serious effort to make such a case. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/278 "2010-03-23T03:23:29Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > I’m not talking about abortion clinics. I’m talking about someone that tries to get someone fired because they dared question her logic about denying a scholarship because it was supposed to go to a male student…after we had just cheerfully followed instructions giving out countless scholarships that were supposed to go to females only…(private scholarships) > > …and then tries to get ME fired because I didn’t immediately toss him out of the committee (I was head of the standards and scholarship committee). > > Now when I mean ‘try to get you fired’ I don’t mean being angry, demanding and making a scene. I’m talking writing letters to the governor demanding your immediately sacking…as well as accreditation institutions, newspapers etc etc etc carried on over years. > > She was not abnormal. > > On the other side, when I (and the committee) refused to endorse a phlebotomy (however blood drawing is spelled) because we did not see the point in offering a program whose graduates were going to be hired at minimum wage (but left the door open if they would only offer above minimum wage…). Sigh…that provoked HUGE arguments and community meetings. > > Biz leaders tried to get me replaced as head of the committee…but not once did they even suggest I should have been sacked. They were angry and thought we were misguided and wrong…but I never had a rep from the governers office calling. Sorry that happened to you. Would it help if I exchanged my story of radical extremist conservatism? Would you call me a liar then, an outlier, or simply misinterpreting the facts? I have no problems admitting that some liberals can do bad things. They are, however, the minority. But most conservatives do bad things. Witness any debate about health care in the last 20 years, any debate about patriotism, and the whole Tea Bagger movement. These are not a tiny minority. They are the majority. They are the ones watching FOX News and believing every word of it. Conservatives are extremists. Its not a surprise when you see what kind of ideology they spew and the kind of brainless cult worship they act like. Their main tenets of radical religious dogma and emotion over intellect creates and fosters this environment. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/279 "2010-03-23T05:54:08Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Mere banning is not really force. > > I never said anything about sex-I mean fornication. How do you define “fornication?” And would you outlaw it as such? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/280 "2010-03-23T11:12:12Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > A very conservative will feel you are misguided and wrong if you disagree with them. A very liberal will feel you are evil and need to be destroyed. > > Don’t get me wrong…I despised the very conservative when I was in academia. However, the very liberal were totalitarian, scary and with out compassion…you know…evil. Ask a gay teenager in a conservative household about this. I suspect you’d get quite a different answer. Or a gay high school teacher, for that matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329.md?page=15)