# Is America Really Backward Compared to the Rest of the West **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2010, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329 "2010-03-13T05:30:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/301 "2010-03-24T17:48:48Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > **Curtis** , do yourself a favour and read this post. Read it until you understand it, and assume that the European making it knows what he’s talking about. About the only thing I’d add is to re-consider the labels “left wing” and “right wing” in US American politics - you have no left wing. You have right wing and righter wing. Should I perhaps point out that there are many people in the U.S. who don’t know what they’re talking about, and especially so when it comes to economics? Some of what **Ridley** says may be factually correct; not being a student of European economics I couldn’t say. But in point of fact some of what he says is mere opinion and some is just political bullshit too. Just because someone comes from another country it hardly follows that they necessarily know what they’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/302 "2010-03-24T17:58:10Z")
Let’s assume they know more than a blinkered 13 year old. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/303 "2010-03-25T02:07:07Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Oh complete bullshit. The UK Conservative party platform includes ringfencing money for the NHS, boosting funding for public schools, revamping the UK’s energy policy, especially with regard to sustainable energy, tackling racism etc. etc. It’s American style corporatism combined with your insane emphasis on electing far right pinheads that isn’t working. Your country is a wreck and you’re staring down an economic precipice. The social democracies of central continental Europe are going from strength to strength, maintaining a higher standard of living than you’ve ever enjoyed. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National\_Health\_Service\_(England)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Health_Service_(England)) > [@](#): > > The Blair Government, whilst leaving services free at point of use, has encouraged outsourcing of medical services and support to the private sector. Under the Private Finance Initiative, an increasing number of hospitals have been built (or rebuilt) by private sector consortia; hospitals may have both medical services such as independent Sector Treatment Centres (ISTCs)[39] and non-medical services such as catering provided under long-term contracts by the private sector. A study by a consultancy company which works for the Department of Health shows that every £200 million spent on privately financed hospitals will result in the loss of 1000 doctors and nurses. The first PFI hospitals contain some 28 per cent fewer beds than the ones they replaced.[40] > [@](#): > > The UK right wing is far to the left of even the American left wing, which also makes the comments about Europeans electing Nazis (not made in this thread, but elsewhere on these boards) ridiculous. Even the “far right” BNP is to the left of the GOP. Fascists and their ilk have always been economically rather left-wing (remember Nazis were National Socialists). ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/304 "2010-03-25T02:26:59Z")
So now Europeans are not just socialists but emergent fascists. Or at least what passes for fascist amongst uneducated Americans. :rolleyes: Your county is fine **Curtis**. Your weird fixation on what others think about your country and their remarkable disinclination to become Americans does have that classic whiff of high school acceptance panic. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/305 "2010-03-25T02:31:26Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > So now Europeans are not just socialists but emergent fascists. Or at least what passes for fascist amongst uneducated Americans. :rolleyes: > > Your county is fine **Curtis**. Your weird fixation on what others think about your country and their remarkable disinclination to become Americans does have that classic whiff of high school acceptance panic. I meant the BNP who someone else claimed was more left-wing than the Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/306 "2010-03-25T02:46:50Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I meant the BNP who someone else claimed was more left-wing than the Republicans. What you said was that: "Fascists and their ilk have always been economically rather left-wing (remember Nazis were National Socialists). " And there goes that debunked point again. After the massacre of the SA any pretense of being left wing was eliminated and the “Socialist” part of the Nazi name was a joke. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11170652&postcount=21](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11170652&postcount=21) ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/307 "2010-03-25T03:30:55Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > What you said was that: "Fascists and their ilk have always been economically rather left-wing (remember Nazis were National Socialists). " > > And there goes that debunked point again. > > After the massacre of the SA any pretense of being left wing was eliminated and the “Socialist” part of the Nazi name was a joke. > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11170652&postcount=21](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11170652&postcount=21) I was referring to the BNP. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi\_Germany](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy\_of\_Nazi\_Germany](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany) > [@](#): > > Hitler’s views on economics, beyond his early belief that the economy was of secondary importance, are a matter of debate. On the one hand, he proclaimed in one of his speeches that “we are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system”,[6] but he was clear to point out that his interpretation of socialism “has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism,” saying that “Marxism is anti-property; true Socialism is not.”[7] At a later time, Hitler said: “Socialism! That is an unfortunate word altogether… What does socialism really mean? If people have something to eat and their pleasures, then they have their socialism.”[8] In private, Hitler also said that “I absolutely insist on protecting private property… we must encourage private initiative”.[9] On yet another occasion he qualified that statement by saying that the government should have the power to regulate the use of private property for the good of the nation.[10] ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/308 "2010-03-25T05:50:46Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I was referring to the BNP. > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi\_Germany](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany) > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy\_of\_Nazi\_Germany](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany) Actions spoke better than words, the big German industrialists only had to deal with the management of the Nazis, in exchange the syndicalist leaders (hated by the industrialists) were arrested or murdered. Many of those capitalists also got to use slave labor furnished by the Nazis too, (A good number of those slaves were arrested members of the communist and \*\*socialist \*\*parties of Germany) and many of those criminal companies survived the war. And before the war it was the Nazi party that returned the banks that had been nationalized by the Wiemar republic, of course some Nazi members complained that they were “socialists” and should not turn the banks back to the capitalists, but Hitler just convinced the dissenters. I let to your imagination what that “convincing” likely meant. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/309 "2010-03-25T10:44:45Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Some of what **Ridley** says may be factually correct; not being a student of European economics I couldn’t say. But in point of fact some of what he says is mere opinion and some is just political bullshit too. Why don’t you take a shot at debunking the claims that I made that you feel are bullshit, then? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/310 "2010-03-25T10:47:34Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I meant the BNP who someone else claimed was more left-wing than the Republicans. You said “fascists and their ilk have always been economically rather left wing”. The fact that the major fascist party of the 20th century (along with Mussolini in Italy) wasn’t anywhere near an economically left wing party proves you’re talking shit. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/311 "2010-03-25T11:38:29Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I meant the BNP who someone else claimed was more left-wing than the Republicans. I’m sure you did. Your ability to articulate your points in this thread has been nothing less than breathtaking so far. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/312 "2010-03-25T16:46:52Z")
Wow, now Germany is a Facist Sozialistic NAZI country again… cool… So in the USA, they never had slaves and some of the companies that used to have slaves are all gone, right. They also never killed any Indians or Native Americans or anything, right. The US never did anything wrong… cool Like they never had Nazis…right? Check [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_Bund) out… coming back to the argument at hand, if the US is backwards… [check this out](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_Nations) … In Germany, the Nazi’s are gone for over sixty years, the US still has them. Freedom of speach, check out [McCarthy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy) Every nation is backwards in one or another way… the US is, Ireland is, Germany is… and the rest of the world is. Keep thumping your Bible and screwing yourself for money, is backwards for me…it’s advancement for you. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/313 "2010-03-25T18:09:32Z")
Attempting to place someone closer or further away from the Nazis based on “left” or “right” positioning is a fool’s game. The Nazis were not in any place on the political spectrum of a modern representative democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/314 "2010-03-25T22:36:34Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Attempting to place someone closer or further away from the Nazis based on “left” or “right” positioning is a fool’s game. The Nazis were not in any place on the political spectrum of a modern representative democracy. In Germany they are called “right radicals” (rechts radical). Whatever this means in another country is another matter. . . . Right wing means in Germany - Christian Democratic Union What the NAzis had to do with C’ins is unclear to me, since they clearly had nothing to do with Christianity - fullstop. Neither had they anything to do with Sozialist - remember the war with russia? Closest thing to modern politics would be maybe China and that is streching it. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/315 "2010-03-26T12:52:16Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > Right wing means in Germany - Christian Democratic Union > What the NAzis had to do with C’ins is unclear to me, since they clearly had nothing to do with Christianity - fullstop. To be fair, and to quote an old economics profesor of mine, the point of including the word “Christian” in the name was to signal that they were NOT JEWISH. Not that the CDU are anything like the Nazis, but there’s a reason for the origin of the name. And (on another point) privatisation of the NHS has never been a popular policy. The privatisation efforts of the Thatcher years was seen as directly responsible for a marked decline in the quality of service which has only recovered in the past ten years under Labour by rolling a lot of them back. Blair’s (or, more accurately, Brown’s) predilection for “public-private partnerships” (read: outsourcing) in various public services was deeply unpopular and was forced through by Brown when he was Chancellor; many of these initiatives have yielded dire results (see especially the fiasco with the London Underground, in which Brown signed terrible deals just before handing control of the Tube over to new London mayor Ken Livingstone, whom he hated). ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/316 "2010-03-26T13:43:08Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > What the NAzis had to do with C’ins is unclear to me, since they clearly had nothing to do with Christianity - fullstop. Uh, I think the evidence is there to show that Nazis used Christianity for their ends, and many German Christians liked to help. > **[Legalni bukmacherzy w Polsce 2025 – Ranking](https://www.nobeliefs.com/)** > > Poznaj listę najlepszych legalnych bukmacherów w Polsce. Sprawdź najlepsze oferty i bezpiecznie obstawiaj zakłady w 2025 roku. [http://www.nobeliefs.com/mementoes.htm](http://www.nobeliefs.com/mementoes.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/317 "2010-03-26T14:43:25Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > And (on another point) privatisation of the NHS has never been a popular policy. The privatisation efforts of the Thatcher years was seen as directly responsible for a marked decline in the quality of service which has only recovered in the past ten years under Labour by rolling a lot of them back. … Privatication causes a lot of hassle, since all that matters is the BUCK, not the people and service usualy is much worse. > [@Gyrate](#): > > To be fair, and to quote an old economics profesor of mine, the point of including the word “Christian” in the name was to signal that they were NOT JEWISH. Not that the CDU are anything like the Nazis, but there’s a reason for the origin of the name. Interssting that the CDU is also the US loving Party - which is neither bad or good, just a fact. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Uh, I think the evidence is there to show that Nazis used Christianity for their ends, and many German Christians liked to help. > > [Legalni bukmacherzy w Polsce 2025 – Ranking](http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm) > > [http://www.nobeliefs.com/mementoes.htm](http://www.nobeliefs.com/mementoes.htm) As you are aware, the Nazi bacilly invented propaganda. Hitler believed in all sort of crazy stuff, but christianity was not one of them. Read the [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_views) and you can find out the mess his religion was. The Nazi’s used images, slogans etc. very effective to get every groupe (exept the Jews) with power behind them - the churches (protestant & catholics) where one of these powers. They called themselves a Worker party, yet where funded by big business and gave those businesses slavelabour. Yes Hitler properly claimed to do the christian thing, yet he also let people research pagen stuff for their gain. They used christians, certainly to do their bidding by manipulation, but the NSDAP was certainly not a christian party. However, the cites you have mentioned are from a biased source that likes to represent religion in the worst light possible (in this case by association with the nazis). ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/318 "2010-03-26T15:17:42Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Uh, I think the evidence is there to show that Nazis used Christianity for their ends, and many German Christians liked to help. Nazis disliked Christianity in general. They’d use anything if it helped them, of course, depending on what was convenient in the war, including allying themselves with racial groups they doubtlessly would have later tried to exterminate had the opportunity arisen. That meant the Nazis couldn’t have just gone after Christianity full bore, since, obviously, the great majority of Germans were Christians at least in theory, although regular church attendance had already dropped off quite a lot by the time Hitler came to power. A great many political compromises were made and a lot of priests shot to make the point that compromise was best. Hitler sometimes gave li pservice to Christianity but didn’t believe in it himself; he once said “The dogma of Christianity is worn away before the advances of science” and said Europe was going through “the collapse of Christianity.” He saw all truth as being visible through the lens of racial warfare. Nevertheless, Nazism is ultimately incompatible with a competing religious belief system. Christian clergy were extremely oppressed and in thousands of cases murdered by the Nazis, and top Nazis were openly contemptuous towards it - and all - religions. There’s no way to map Nazism onto modern U.S. politics. It’s a totally different set of fundamental beliefs that dismisses the central concept of objective justice in favour of a policy of unending warfare between nations and the subservience of everything to the purpose of supporting the state in prosecuting war. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/319 "2010-03-26T15:58:34Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > P > However, the cites you have mentioned are from a biased source that likes to represent religion in the worst light possible (in this case by association with the nazis). In the great documentary “The world at War” it shows that Christmas was a big deal in Nazi Germany and many priests and nuns did attend the Nazi rallies of Hitler and Goebbels. You really need to check the German movie “the nasty girl” it was based on the history of a young German christian girl that decided to investigate the wartime past of her village. Suffice to say, the elders were not amused when their whitewashed past of their city and church Nazi connections were revealed. It struck a chord with me as I saw the conservative Catholics in El Salvador doing the same thing when supporting and cuddling the right wing dictators there. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/320 "2010-03-26T16:09:22Z")
BTW I do know that there were many people of conscience and faith that opposed the Nazis, unfortunately thanks to deals that the Nazis made early with Christian churches (they agreed to not criticize the Nazi regime as all were going to oppose the infidel Soviet Union) the religious opposition to the Nazis was a minority or ineffectual. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329.md?page=17)