# Is America Really Backward Compared to the Rest of the West **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2010, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329 "2010-03-13T05:30:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/321 "2010-03-26T17:57:39Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > In the great documentary “The world at War” it shows that Christmas was a big deal in Nazi Germany and many priests and nuns did attend the Nazi rallies of Hitler and Goebbels. > > You really need to check the German movie “the nasty girl” it was based on the history of a young German christian girl that decided to investigate the wartime past of her village. > > Suffice to say, the elders were not amused when their whitewashed past of their city and church Nazi connections were revealed. > > It struck a chord with me as I saw the conservative Catholics in El Salvador doing the same thing when supporting and cuddling the right wing dictators there. Sure christmas was and still is a big deal, but mostly has absolutly nothing to do with Christianity anymore… Santa Claus living at the Noth Pole and has a slight that flights with whatever amount of Raindeers and eats cookies after coming though a chimney… where was this ever mentioned in the Bible? And yes, the Christians came up with the Tannenbaum as well… check it out [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree#History) it’s all based on the Bible of cos. Also very funny, that you are quoting “the nasty girl”… I hope you are aware, that it is a political satiere comedy as such, right? If not read up [here](http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_schreckliche_M%C3%A4dchen) Maybe I got absolutly no clue about the German history related to the Nazi time at all, but my Gandmother being inprisoned in Auswitz, while my Grandpa was fighting on the Russian front really gives me no incline to what happend during this time at all. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/322 "2010-03-26T18:25:01Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > Maybe I got absolutly no clue about the German history related to the Nazi time at all, but my Gandmother being inprisoned in Auswitz, while my Grandpa was fighting on the Russian front really gives me no incline to what happend during this time at all. Then I don’t have much to say except that it makes no sense why you are minimizing Christianity’s influence in getting antisemitism going on in Europe. Remember, Hitler did not act in a vacuum, conservative christian and Catholics had a big part on it. And in Germany, Luther did not make it easier for the Jews. As for your effort to just make that movie satire: > **[Anna Rosmus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Rosmus)** > > Anna Rosmus, also known as Anja Rosmus-Wenninger, is a German author and researcher born in 1960 in Passau, Bavaria. > As a 16-year-old, Rosmus started developing an interest in contemporary history, especially that of the Third Reich, a subject that was barely mentioned at school. Encouraged by her father, a principal, she participated in a national essay contest that addressed the history of her city during the pre-war years. Some prominent residents claimed that the community remained untouched... > [@](#): > > As a child and adolescent she started developing an interest in contemporary history, especially that of the Third Reich. The subject was barely mentioned at school. Challenged by her father, a principal, she participated in a nation-wide essay contest that addressed the history of her city during the prewar years. Whereas some prominent residents claimed that the community remain untouched by the war, and others were praising themselves for their alleged political resistance against the dictatorship, Rosmus’ efforts were not welcomed by many inhabitants. Nevertheless, at age 20, she started digging into the past. Upon further questioning of some of Passau’s elders, Rosmus came across a widespread silence and refusal to provide specific information. > > After three years of perseverance and litigation, she was finally granted access to the city administration’s archives. What she found was baffling. Fabled local leaders had not only been compliant, but were active members of the Nazi Party long before the war. Several concentration -, forced labor- and prisoner-of-war concentration camps had been built in and around the city. > > In the meantime, Rosmus had written her first book, Resistance and Persecution - The Case of Passau 1933-1939, which was published in 1983. Undeterred by threats, she now wrote Exodus - In the Shadow of Mercy, a book focusing on the plight of Passau’s Jews during the twentieth century. Her work continued to cause unprecedented uproar as well as remarkable praise. > [@](#): > > In August 1994, after constant harassment and death threats stemming from her own community, Rosmus and her daughters moved to the United States. They settled in the Washington D.C. area. Since her youngest daughter’s graduation from high school, Rosmus has lived near Chesapeake Bay in Maryland. Charming community she found out she lived with.. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/323 "2010-03-26T18:58:15Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Charming community she found out she lived with.. Yes, indeed. Post WWII Germany is a political & historical minefield. However, it seams like that you like to blame the churches for it, which is ridicules. Sure, they could have rallied against the ideas of Hitler, they clearly knew what he was up and put their heads in the sand like an ostrich. They properly thought, that Hitler will do some of their dirty work for them, while they wash their hands free, which doesn’t make me a friend of the church so to say. Most Germans know this and that is one of the reasons, they stoped going to church. They still life in a Christian way, but the church has nothing to say in matters anymore. In schools the religion education is called “Ethnic” and covers all sorts of religions and explains then to the pupils. There is religouse freedom in Germany and oneone can practice what they want or believe. However, the regulations to qualify to become a recognised “church” organisation are very strict - see Scientology, which is not a recognised church in Germany, yet people are free to follow it. The meaning of this is: Germany moved on. The US still thumps the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/324 "2010-03-26T20:16:17Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > As for your effort to just make that movie satire: Check out the imdb [link](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100557/keywords) The keywords for the classifications of the movie are: Nazi Alternative History Post War Bra Less Tragicomedy Ex Nazi Teenage Girl In Underwear Surrealism Controversial Female Nudity German Shepherd Female Frontal Nudity Dead Cat Film With Ambiguous Title Nude Swimming West Germany Volkswagen Beetle Provincial Life Vow Of Silence Small Town Germany Bra Less Teen Older Man Younger Woman Relationship Bavaria WWII Societal Hypocrisy Cover Up Post WWII Historical Revisionism Writing Contest Firebomb Based On True Story ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/325 "2010-03-26T21:19:36Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > Check out the imdb [link](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100557/keywords) > The keywords for the classifications of the movie are: > > Nazi > Alternative History > Post War > Bra Less > Tragicomedy > Ex Nazi > Teenage Girl In Underwear > Surrealism > Controversial > Female Nudity > German Shepherd > Female Frontal Nudity > Dead Cat > Film With Ambiguous Title > Nude Swimming > West Germany > Volkswagen Beetle > Provincial Life > Vow Of Silence > Small Town > Germany > Bra Less Teen > Older Man Younger Woman Relationship > Bavaria > WWII > Societal Hypocrisy > Cover Up > Post WWII > Historical Revisionism > Writing Contest > Firebomb > Based On True Story Meh, I pointed to the background and the lady in question, the movie is not the point now as you complained about it. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/326 "2010-03-26T23:51:58Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Meh, I pointed to the background and the lady in question, the movie is not the point now as you complained about it. Well, sure the stuff that happend there is kinda crazy and the things people tried to cover up is just unreal. But trust me, when I say, that the Germans are not taking it lightly these days what happend during the war and are well aware of it. Coming to war, not only the Germans did terible things. Stalin killed many many more people, then the NAZI regime ever did, they just did it differently and not as methoticly, which makes the whole thing so “evil”. Just look at the crap that went down during the Vietnam war, many things happening there only came out years afterwards. The Japanes aren’t even now oweing up to the atrosities that they commited during the time of WWII, which you can not say about the Germans. They are informing their citizens about it and are trying to prevent somthing like this from happening again through education. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/327 "2010-03-27T02:27:08Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > Wow, now Germany is a Facist Sozialistic NAZI country again… cool… > > So in the USA, they never had slaves and some of the companies that used to have slaves are all gone, right. > They also never killed any Indians or Native Americans or anything, right. Slavery was practiced by most other nations so nobody else in any better. Plus it was never the official policy of the US government to kill every Indian in existence. > [@](#): > > The US never did anything wrong… cool > Like they never had Nazis…right? Check [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_Bund) out… coming back to the argument at hand, if the US is backwards… [check this out](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_Nations) … In Germany, the Nazi’s are gone for over sixty years, the US still has them. The Aryan Nations is a joke. Plus there are borderline neo-Nazi parties in Germany. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National\_Democratic\_Party\_of\_Germany\_(NPD)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Democratic_Party_of_Germany_(NPD)) and they’ve gotten some votes in elections. > [@](#): > > Freedom of speach, check out [McCarthy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy) Who was censured by the Senate. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/328 "2010-03-27T05:59:52Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Plus it was never the official policy of the US government to kill every Indian in existence. Well, I guess as long as they do it BUT don’t make it official that they are, it becomes OK ;). But you’re right : the Western powers didn’t set out to kill or displace every last Indian tribe in all of Northern America. Just those that were living in places Western settlers wanted for themselves. It’s surely only coincidental that the latter turned out to be “every last scrap of Northern America”. Who could have foreseen that ?! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/329 "2010-03-27T13:33:03Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Slavery was practiced by most other nations so nobody else in any better. First of all, as even you note, slavery was not a universal practice. Even compared to other societies where it was practiced, the large-scale usage of human chattel for cash-crop agriculture in the midst of an ostensibly “Enlightened” society had no parallel. Secondly, the USA was one of the _last_ major nations to abolish slavery. > [@](#): > > Plus it was never the official policy of the US government to kill every Indian in existence. Where did **Doughbag** assert that genocide was official US policy? He was merely noting that the USA has a _lot_ of Native American blood on its hands. Some of that was by private actors, some actually was by agents of the government. Even the private actors acted with the tacit approval of the US government, who opened huge tracts of land for White settlement without first establishing an effective method of governance over those regions. > [@](#): > > Who was censured by the Senate. AFTER he had already fanned the flames of the Red Scare. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/330 "2010-03-27T15:36:15Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > First of all, as even you note, slavery was not a universal practice. Even compared to other societies where it was practiced, the large-scale usage of human chattel for cash-crop agriculture in the midst of an ostensibly “Enlightened” society had no parallel. Largely because other societies had peasent labourers which while not exactly slaves were “serfs” or “peons”. > [@](#): > > Secondly, the USA was one of the _last_ major nations to abolish slavery. That’s only because of the Southern US. If you count the Northern half they were among the first to abolish slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/331 "2010-03-27T23:57:30Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > That’s only because of the Southern US. If you count the Northern half they were among the first to abolish slavery. Well, is the USA one nation or just North and South? That is the same as me telling you there was no such things as the Holocaust in Germany, those where only the Nazis and has nothing to do with Germany at all. So either there where Nazis and the US had slaves and used the army to kill Indians or there where no Nazis and no Indians killed and no slaves in the US. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Slavery was practiced by most other nations so nobody else in any better. Plus it was never the official policy of the US government to kill every Indian in existence. You’re sure? Till when? BTW it is still practice in some backwater countries. But no mayor European nation had slaves, when the US still had. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > The Aryan Nations is a joke. Plus there are borderline neo-Nazi parties in Germany. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National\_Democratic\_Party\_of\_Germany\_(NPD)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Democratic_Party_of_Germany_(NPD)) and they’ve gotten some votes in elections. Well, then I claime the same statement, I can claim the same about the NPD - they are a joke. So is the Ku Klux Clan. Yes, bad thing like this only happend in the movie and only in Germany. Same for the rights of black people, who where really only allowed to vote in the US after 1964, that is how many years after the North free’d them? Yeah right, that war was really all about freeing the slaves… So why did it take almost 100 years to give them their rights then? They where allowed to die in WWII for the American way of life, but where not allowed to vote at home in the whole country. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/332 "2010-03-28T00:30:19Z")
Nitpit: It’s Ku Klux **K** lan, hence KKK. I only point it out so that we know whom to watch. Mostly its them Scottish types in the **c** lan. Curiously, I note that according to Wikipedia, they were briefly called the Kuklux Clan. Otherwise : Well said, keep it up **Doughbag**. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/333 "2010-03-28T01:21:13Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > So either there where Nazis and the US had slaves and used the army to kill Indians or there where no Nazis and no Indians killed and no slaves in the US. You’re aware that Indians took slaves from other tribes, right? There were slaves in America long before the first African slaves arrived. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/334 "2010-03-28T01:47:53Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You’re aware that Indians took slaves from other tribes, right? There were slaves in America long before the first African slaves arrived. And your point would be??? Good lord, I can’t even believe you’re trying to make some sort of point with this statement. Hell, they used to crucify people, can’t be that bad then, heh. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/335 "2010-03-28T05:50:40Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > He’s already made clear that he wouldn’t use force to stop people doing anything, he’d just put people into prison camps who do. Surely you can see his internally consistent point? > > 😛 Considering that he’s also said he wouldn’t ban porn, I’m wondering whether he’s actually thinking of making the fornicators fornicate on camera… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/336 "2010-03-28T22:48:44Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Slavery was practiced by most other nations so nobody else in any better. And so? “Well, they did it too!” Using the argument that others have done wrong as well is not a good one, and I believe this has been out to you before, **Curtis**. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/337 "2010-03-29T02:36:57Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National\_Health\_Service\_(England)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Health_Service_(England)). Hm. I always thought the English national vice was caning. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/338 "2010-03-29T11:17:38Z")
Check out what Unicef has to say: [http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/usa\_statistics.html](http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/usa_statistics.html) [http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/germany\_statistics.html](http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/germany_statistics.html) [http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/france\_statistics.html](http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/france_statistics.html) [http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/switzerland\_statistics.html](http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/switzerland_statistics.html) [http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/canada\_statistics.html](http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/canada_statistics.html) check out drink water or read things like this: > **[32 Million American Adults Cannot Read](https://news.softpedia.com/news/32-Million-American-Adults-Cannot-Read-101685.shtml)** > > Illiteracy levels among the adult US population are at 14 percent ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/339 "2010-03-29T11:24:05Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You’re aware that Indians took slaves from other tribes, right? There were slaves in America long before the first African slaves arrived. And what exactly is your point there? The Germans didn’t invent the concentration camps… that doesn’t make the things the Nazis did go away, or does it in your case? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/340 "2010-03-29T11:28:57Z")
I have read this ENTIRE thread, for my sins, and it’s appears to me that in M. Le May’s world, and to a certain extent, Starving Artist’s, we all live in a cartoon. Now pardon me while I use some of my ill-gotten state subsidies to get one of my slaves to vote for a fundamentalist Muslim in order to collapse my own economy - but in a fascist way. You know, socialism! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329.md?page=18)