# Is America Really Backward Compared to the Rest of the West **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2010, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329 "2010-03-13T05:30:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/361 "2010-04-06T15:29:08Z")
I just came in here to point out the obvious. The ‘free speech’ of willful misrepresentations, meant to inflame and promote hate for the ‘other’ is a huge part of why America is where it is today. Every issue is a 49/51 divide. It has bread divisive politics that see the part of the 49% content to be nothing but obstructionist. And America suffers as a result. Newspapers, and news networks profit, the divisions within your society grow ever wider. And those constituting ‘others’, be they abortion providers or health care reform supports, get physically threatened and attacked. Free speech ends at yelling fire in a crowded theatre for a reason, it endangers lives. So does the spreading of hate. Coupled with a gun in every hand and you have a recipe for, well, The Excited States of America. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/362 "2010-04-06T15:31:36Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > The list of “Great stuff not invented by Americans” goes on but it’s more than a little dick-waving to start comparing that sort of thing IME. It was in direct relation to puddins post, not the lack of anyones willy. Technology wise, the US is not more advanced than the rest of the “West”, since these days most things are done global anyhow. There are lots of companies which strech over the whole globe to get the best out of each location. Let me put it this way, my 16 year old niece was over in the US as an exchange student and got asked following by her US classmates: “How do you get around, since you don’t have cars yet in Germany”. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/363 "2010-04-06T16:08:53Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > It was in direct relation to puddins post, not the lack of anyones willy. > > Technology wise, the US is not more advanced than the rest of the “West”, since these days most things are done global anyhow. > There are lots of companies which strech over the whole globe to get the best out of each location. > > Let me put it this way, my 16 year old niece was over in the US as an exchange student and got asked following by her US classmates: “How do you get around, since you don’t have cars yet in Germany”. Did she say ‘teleportation’? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/364 "2010-04-06T16:20:08Z")
In America if Jack Chick ran for political office with his current conspiracy theory views he’d be laughed at and lose badly in an election. In Northern Ireland one of the major party leaders (Ian Paisley) is an anti-Catholic conspiracy theorist. Ironically there is one aspect of Europe I consider to be rather more progressive: Europe’s abortion laws are often more moderate compared to America’s “Murder at Will” abortion laws. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/365 "2010-04-06T16:26:22Z")
> [@](#): > > “Murder at Will” What the devil does this mean? That everyone has equal access to abortion? As opposed to those whom you would deny because you don’t deem them to be ‘worthy’? Or is this just another example of how Christian belief should drive all things? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/366 "2010-04-06T16:29:11Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > What the devil does this mean? That everyone has equal access to abortion? As opposed to those whom you would deny because you don’t deem them to be ‘worthy’? Or is this just another example of how Christian belief should drive all things? To use a more PC term: “abortion on demand”. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/367 "2010-04-06T16:33:38Z")
What puzzles me about Europe-most european countries have a national church, which is supported by taxes. Yet, most people in europe are either athiests or non-practicing-so why do they still support these churches? What is the point about havinga national church, if nobody goes to it?:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/368 "2010-04-06T16:38:07Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > In America if Jack Chick ran for political office with his current conspiracy theory views he’d be laughed at and lose badly in an election. In Northern Ireland one of the major party leaders (Ian Paisley) is an anti-Catholic conspiracy theorist. > > Ironically there is one aspect of Europe I consider to be rather more progressive: Europe’s abortion laws are often more moderate compared to America’s “Murder at Will” abortion laws. Curtis, this thread has become a train wreck, and the blame largely rests on the original post, which is full of fuzzy logic and strawmanning of all kinds. I really don’t know what you think you’re accomplishing here. Do you think you’re proving some kind of point? This particular post, for example, is complete nonsense. There is no fair comparison between Jack Chick and Ian Paisley. But you know what, there are plenty of elected officials and political in the United States that have expressed outrageously bigoted or borderline conspiratorial opinions. But regardless of whether you score the point for the Chick/Paisley issue or one of your opponents does, it really doesn’t move any kind of ball closer to any kind of goal. Sit back and think a little bit here. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/369 "2010-04-06T16:38:24Z")
Meaning? What is your objection to abortion on demand? That anyone can access it? Including the ‘unworthy’? Or because it doesn’t align with your Christian views? Does it even matter to you that it was passed into law by officials elected by a majority and, as such, represents the very democracy you claim to love? Or because you weren’t part of that majority, in this instance, democracy sucks? And ‘Abortion on demand’, translates to, ‘Murder at will’? You’re not even attempting to be anything to inflammatory. You represent exactly what’s wrong with your country, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/370 "2010-04-06T16:41:27Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > In America if Jack Chick ran for political office with his current conspiracy theory views he’d be laughed at and lose badly in an election. In Northern Ireland one of the major party leaders (Ian Paisley) is an anti-Catholic conspiracy theorist. > > Ironically there is one aspect of Europe I consider to be rather more progressive: Europe’s abortion laws are often more moderate compared to America’s “Murder at Will” abortion laws. When you say “Europe” which bit are you referring to here? Ireland/Poland where you can’t get an abortion at all? Or France/the UK/Spain where you can get one pretty much any time up until the end of the first trimester? I have to ask - do you just mash the keyboard hoping what you post might end up being correct or do you actually believe you know what you’re talking about in spite of all the evidence to the contrary? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/371 "2010-04-06T16:44:09Z")
Has **Curtis** been to the pit yet? 'Cause I can smell the sulfur. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/372 "2010-04-06T16:49:23Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Meaning? What is your objection to abortion on demand? > > That anyone can access it? Including the ‘unworthy’? Or because it doesn’t align with your Christian views? Does it even matter to you that it was passed into law by officials elected by a majority and, as such, represents the very democracy you claim to love? Or because you weren’t part of that majority, in this instance, democracy sucks? > > And ‘Abortion on demand’, translates to, ‘Murder at will’? You’re not even attempting to be anything to inflammatory. You represent exactly what’s wrong with your country, dude. Without turning this into a debate about abortion I will say that I think abortion is murder. Plus the Supreme Court is not elected. > [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > When you say “Europe” which bit are you referring to here? Ireland/Poland where you can’t get an abortion at all? Or France/the UK/Spain where you can get one pretty much any time up until the end of the first trimester? > > I have to ask - do you just mash the keyboard hoping what you post might end up being correct or do you actually believe you know what you’re talking about in spite of all the evidence to the contrary? I meant Europe in general. Germany for instance while not completely pro-life is slightly more reasonable about abortion than the USA. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/373 "2010-04-06T16:58:19Z")
But they were appointed by your elected officials, as dictated by your democracy. So suck it up. You’re either for democracy or you’re not. You don’t get to be for it, when it’s on your side, and against it when it’s not. This sort of foolishness is exactly what’s all wrong about America. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/374 "2010-04-06T17:00:02Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > What puzzles me about Europe-most european countries have a national church, which is supported by taxes. Yet, most people in europe are either athiests or non-practicing-so why do they still support these churches? > What is the point about havinga national church, if nobody goes to it?:rolleyes: You don’t. You leave the church and with that, you don’t have to pay the tax, if there is any. I believe “National Chruch” has something to do with the protestant history and is mostly just a name, there is no duty to be part of it. These chruches got declared by ([let’s pick the UK](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_england)) a King who wanted to divorce his wifes a bit to often. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/375 "2010-04-06T17:05:28Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Without turning this into a debate about abortion I will say that I think abortion is murder. The funniest thing I’ve read in ages. Plus bonus points for derailing your own thread. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/376 "2010-04-06T17:05:52Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Without turning this into a debate about abortion I will say that I think abortion is murder. > > I meant Europe in general. Germany for instance while not completely pro-life is slightly more reasonable about abortion than the USA. What exactly do you mean by that? [Abortion in Germany](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Germany) ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/377 "2010-04-06T17:07:28Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > But they were appointed by your elected officials, as dictated by your democracy. So suck it up. You’re either for democracy or you’re not. You don’t get to be for it, when it’s on your side, and against it when it’s not. This sort of foolishness is exactly what’s all wrong about America. Would you say the same thing after Plessy v. Ferguson or the Dread Scott case? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/378 "2010-04-06T17:11:21Z")
**Curtis** , shut up. Really, your OP is terrible, your arguments are pathetic and your understanding of life outside of your basement is so meager as to be embarrassing. In short, America is basically a western country no better and often no worse than others. Go find a different martyrdom. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/379 "2010-04-06T17:13:12Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > What exactly do you mean by that? [Abortion in Germany](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Germany) > [@](#): > > A new law was passed by the Bundestag in 1992, permitting first-trimester abortions on demand, subject to counselling and a three-day waiting period. The law was quickly challenged in court by a number of individuals - including Chancellor Helmut Kohl - and the State of Bavaria. The Federal Constitutional Court issued a decision a year later maintaining its earlier decision that the constitution protected the fetus from the moment of conception, but stated that it is within the discretion of parliament not to punish abortion in the first trimester[citation needed], providing that the woman had submitted to state-regulated counselling designed to discourage termination and protect unborn life. Here even counseling is not required! ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/380 "2010-04-06T17:14:56Z")
Yes, I would. Why? Because reason prevailed, democracy worked, if not immediately, eventually. Just as it has in the case of abortion. You can keep working it, but we’re not going back no matter how much you’ve convinced yourself otherwise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329.md?page=20)