# Is America Really Backward Compared to the Rest of the West **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2010, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329 "2010-03-13T05:30:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/21 "2010-03-13T15:57:24Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Europe is [poorer](http://www.theatlantic.com/personal/archive/2010/01/the-difference-between-the-us-and-europe/33554/) and its model of social democracy is [doomed](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&esrch=FT1&q=%22tyler+cowen%22+europe+crooked+timber&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=) by shrinking demographics. (Note that the relative poverty of Europe is [masked](http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2009/08/the-magic-of-europe/23749/) to American tourists by the pretty antique buildings.) Oh wow, those are really good cites. Opinion pieces by someone who posted this: > [@](#): > > When I lived there, I literally could not afford to eat meat regularly or take the tube to work, and as a consequence wore holes in my shoes. She was either working as a cleaner, or she’s a liar. Or maybe she thought the only place you could buy meat was Fortnum and Masons. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/22 "2010-03-13T15:58:32Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > In Sweden a minister was prosecuted for calling homosexuality a sin. This statement is part lie, and part deception. The minister claimed that homosexuality was a “cancer on society”, not just that it was a sin. Actually, this is what he said when speaking about homosexuality, after inviting both press and TV to the sermon: > [@](#): > > Sexual abnormities are a serious cancer tumour on the body of society. The lord knows that sexually perverted people will rape the animals. Not even the animals are spared from the sexual urges that burns inside a human. Even that they will do. He sent a quote of his own sermon to the lokal news media as well. He was sued then tried and at first convicted in Tingsrätten, but after appeal he was aquitted in Hovrätten. Your example was frankly one of the most dishonest arguments I have seen here on the board. Not just that the example and presentation itself was fraudulent, but there is also a huge double standard. Or are we now deciding the measure of free speech in a society by the things that goes to court, instead of what the court system decides? > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Plus in Europe far-right wing parties have much more political influence. Most, if not all, of the “far-right wing” parties in Europe would fall to the left of the Republican party if you compared policies. If the Republican party moved to a European country it would be considered a far-far-right party. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/23 "2010-03-13T15:59:50Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Of course affluent SWPL liberals won’t really care if the society at large is worse off, as long as their own status as the enlightened ones is preserved. And their affluence can insulate them to an extent from the wealth-destroying consequences of their ideology. So your solution is what? Make people have more babies? Doesn’t seem like a conservative govt role to me. Caring only about your self and the immediate future sounds like a perfect example of the current American right. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/24 "2010-03-13T16:08:59Z")
I think the OP should study his OP very carefully and report back to us the instances of strawmanning, logical fallacies, and outright propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/25 "2010-03-13T16:14:16Z")
Violence and gore in film/games are **heavily** censored in Australia. “Hate speech” is illegal in France. Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany, as is the ownership of objects marked with Swastikas. In UK there is no legal separation of church and state, with daily worship required by law in public schools. In Canada it is illegal to “incite hatred.” All of those things might look good at a glance, but think about it. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/26 "2010-03-13T16:25:03Z")
**Curtis** , I applaud your looking outside your local sphere to find out more about the big world we live in, but you start off with many assumptions instead of starting by questioning your assumptions. I’ll agree that Canada has different Free Speech laws than the US does, but the average person finds no constriction by them (“heavily curtailed” is quite the exaggeration). Canada has a constitutional provision that guarantees freedom of expression (in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms), but it also has a [limitation clause](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#Canada) - > [@](#): > > Section 1 of the Charter states: > The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society. (emphasis added) > This section is double edged. First it implies that a limitation on freedom of speech prescribed in law can be permitted if it can be justified as being a reasonable limit in a free and democratic society. Conversely, it implies that a restriction can be invalidated if it cannot be shown to be a reasonable limit in a free and democratic society. > In the landmark Supreme Court of Canada case R. v. Zundel (1992), the court struck down a provision in the Criminal Code of Canada that prohibited publication of false information or news, stating that it violated section 2(b) of the Charter. > Under section 318 of the Criminal Code of Canada, it is illegal to promote genocide. Under section 319, it is illegal to publicly incite hatred against people based on their colour, race, religion, ethnic origin, and sexual orientation, except where the statements made are true or are made in good faith. The prohibition against inciting hatred based on sexual orientation was added to the section in 2004 with the passage of Bill C-250. The way I interpret this is that you’re free to express yourself, and other Canadians are free to live without me being hateful to them. I don’t have a problem living under these constraints. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/27 "2010-03-13T16:27:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Violence and gore in film/games are heavily censored in Australia. > > “Hate speech” is illegal in France. > > Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany, as is the ownership of objects marked with Swastikas. > > In UK there is no legal separation of church and state, with daily worship required by law in public schools. > > In Canada it is illegal to “incite hatred.” > > All of those things might look good at a glance, but think about it. So what? Are you saying the America is advanced compared to Europe? Well, what about 17,000 murders per year in the US? If the US is so good, why do you LIKE having so many murders? The answer, of course, is that just because someone admires something, doesn’t mean they have to accept any of its flaws. I love my country, but I don’t like the poverty, crime and racism that exists here. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/28 "2010-03-13T16:31:47Z")
I’ve been up all night, working. What does “SWPL” stand for? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/29 "2010-03-13T16:49:10Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > One of the favourite claims of liberals and leftists is about how enlightened and advanced Europe and Canada is compared to America. They speak of how people have better welfare, are better educated, are more “progressive” and etc. etc. But is it really so? > > Racial tensions in much of Europe is far worse than it is in America. America’s last race riots were in 1992, France had one in 2005 (enough for it to become a national state of emergency). Plus in Europe far-right wing parties have much more political influence. While no American-style mainstream conservative group exists in Europe fanatical Pat Buchanan type reactionaries such as Jean Marie Le Pen wins signifcant amounts of votes in elections. > > Also in Europe and Canada freedom of speech is heavily curtailed. Most notably are the banning of the denial of the Holocaust and displays of the Swastika (even in video games!) in Germany, Austria, and other countries. In Sweden a minister was prosecuted for calling homosexuality a sin. In Canada Chick tracts are banned. While you may disagree with their viewpoints everyone should have the right to say what they want as long as it is not libel or slander-and yes that includes Holocaust denial. > > Thus on the balance Europe is in many ways far less enlightened than America. In the US we only have 2 viable political parties, whereas in Europe you can find 5 or 6 in some nations. So there are more than enough Americans willing to vote for a far right party, but since it is a choice of GOP vs. democratic they vote GOP. The agenda of LePen, who was considered far right in France, is fairly milquetoast by GOP standards. > **[National Rally](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(France)#Political_platform)** > > The National Rally (French: Rassemblement national, \[ʁasɑ̃bləmɑ̃ nɑsjɔnal\], RN), known as the National Front from 1972 to 2018 (French: Front national, \[fʁɔ̃ nɑsjɔnal\], FN), is a French far-right political party, described as right-wing populist and nationalist. It is the single largest parliamentary opposition party in the National Assembly since 2022. It opposes immigration, advocating significant cuts to legal immigration, protection of "French identity", and stricter control of illegal im Traditional values, anti-abortion, law and order, xenophobia, anti-immigration, nationalism. Those aren’t really extreme views by US standards. Here in the US you have GOP politicians claiming the president is an Al Qaeda double agent, (subtly) calling for armed insurrection, lying incessantly, etc. LePen is arguably a moderate right winger by US right wing standards. I remember an interview Obama was doing a few months ago, where he said when he meets political leaders in Europe they are confused as to why people in the US call him a socialist, by European standards Obama is a conservative (according to the unnamed European leaders Obama talked to). And authoritarianism is something both parties do. On the left people may support authoritarian policy about free speech, but the right supports authoritarian policies too. Persecution of gays, opposition to the ACLU, opposition to criticism of the military, etc. ---
**Author:** ![fubbleskag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fubbleskag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fubbleskag)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/30 "2010-03-13T17:06:45Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I’ve been up all night, working. > > What does “SWPL” stand for? [Stuff White People Like](http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/31 "2010-03-13T17:07:43Z")
How about, in relationship to many of the countries of Europe, America is still in its teen-aged years? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/32 "2010-03-13T17:09:30Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Here’s a [link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_racial_violence_in_the_United_States#Modern) for you to peruse that lists race riots in the US more recent than 1992. Those aren’t really “riots”-it’s more of protests gone a bit nasty. They did not even make the top twenty national news stories of the year nor did the President or Governor have to declare a “state of emergency”. > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Erm, what? How are you defining American-style mainstream conservative there? I mean roughly the political paragidm endorsed by people like John McCain or George W. Bush. > [@penultima\_thule](#): > > So your argument is that Europe is in many ways far less enlightened than America because although: > people have better welfare; > and are better educated, > > they are less “progressive” because > Racial tensions are worse; > Far-right wing parties have much more political influence. > Freedom of speech is heavily curtailed. > So I may be uneducated, frail in health and mind for the want of human services but so long as I can allowed to speak racial vilification with impunity, I am enlightened? > > That’s gotta be a magnum opus if I ever saw one. So than Singapore is a utopia for you? > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No it isn’t. I once had a debate on an another forum about the death penalty and a French social democrat showed a map of the nations where the death penalty was legal and where it was illegal and of course he cited about how the US is there with Saudi Arabia, China, and etc. Heck the argument is made in one of the posts below here? There were similar arguments over the Landmine banning treaty which the US hasn’t signed and UHC. > [@njtt](#): > > In the United States, fanatical Pat Buchanan type reactionaries such as Pat Buchanan win significant numbers of votes in elections (even outside of Palm Beach). > > What is your point? Hmm… [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000\_US\_Presidential\_Election](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_US_Presidential_Election) Pat Buchanan won 0.4% of the popular vote (and that includes Palm Beach liberals with bad ballots). [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002\_French\_Presidential\_Election](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_French_Presidential_Election) In the first round Jean Marie Le-Pen won 16.9 % of the vote and he ended up being in the run-off election. So your argument in nonsense. > [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](#): > > If you count putting people to death as being enlightened, then the US is right up with those other beacons of liberty - China, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Japan also has the death penalty. > [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > In those other countries, do corporations have the right to buy elections? In European nations labour unions dominate excessively. For instance in Greece which is in massive debt and thus had to institute paycuts and layoffs civil servants went on massive strikes and protests and some even rioted as a result. > [@RickJay](#): > > They most certainly are not. I realize this idea is popular amongst right wing types on the Internet, but it is not true. Not according to the premier expert on Chick tracts (and no the site is not pro-Chick nor is it anti-Chick) and it includes a \*Washington Post \*article: [http://monsterwax.tripod.com/chicklaws.html](http://monsterwax.tripod.com/chicklaws.html) > [@Chefguy](#): > > An alarming statistic was shown on the news last week that stated the United States ranks 18th out of 24 in quality of education among the 24 most industrialized countries in the world. Whether or not this is due to the tanking of our education system or the improvements to the systems in other countries is up for debate. Cite? Plus unlike say Canada or Sweden, America’s population includes significantly poor minority groups while the other nations are most homogeneous. > [@DanBlather](#): > > In many European countries prostitution is legal (with restrictions), sex, nudity, and profanity can be shown on broadcast TV, prescription drugs tale less time to get to market, and quack treatments and drugs are more widely available. Those are all example of the conservative ideals of less govt/more freedom aren’t they? Banning of the practices you cited are sane and most reasonable regulations by the government. > [@Stoneburg](#): > > This statement is part lie, and part deception. > > The minister claimed that homosexuality was a “cancer on society”, not just that it was a sin. Actually, this is what he said when speaking about homosexuality, after inviting both press and TV to the sermon: > > He sent a quote of his own sermon to the lokal news media as well. > > He was sued then tried and at first convicted in Tingsrätten, but after appeal he was aquitted in Hovrätten. > > Your example was frankly one of the most dishonest arguments I have seen here on the board. Not just that the example and presentation itself was fraudulent, but there is also a huge double standard. Or are we now deciding the measure of free speech in a society by the things that goes to court, instead of what the court system decides? The district court actually sentenced him to a month in prison according to Wiki before he was acquitted in the higher courts. > [@](#): > > Most, if not all, of the “far-right wing” parties in Europe would fall to the left of the Republican party if you compared policies. If the Republican party moved to a European country it would be considered a far-far-right party. Are you really saying that John McCain is more extreme than Jean Marie Le-Pen? > [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > **Curtis** , I applaud your looking outside your local sphere to find out more about the big world we live in, but you start off with many assumptions instead of starting by questioning your assumptions. I’ll agree that Canada has different Free Speech laws than the US does, but the average person finds no constriction by them (“heavily curtailed” is quite the exaggeration). Canada has a constitutional provision that guarantees freedom of expression (in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms), but it also has a [limitation clause](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#Canada) - > The way I interpret this is that you’re free to express yourself, and other Canadians are free to live without me being hateful to them. I don’t have a problem living under these constraints. I do because unlike you I think everyone including racists and bigots should say what they want to say, write what they want to write, publish what they want to publish. For instance the law you cited has a double standard. Why not ban inciting class hatred too-especially when communists attack the upper class? ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/33 "2010-03-13T17:13:00Z")
For those of you wondering about freedom of speech in Europe, the Irish Constitution says: > [@Bunreacht na hEireann](#): > > **Article 40.6.1°.i** > The right of the citizens to express freely their convictions and opinions. > The education of public opinion being, however, a matter of such grave import to the common good, the State shall endeavour to ensure that organs of public opinion, such as the radio, the press, the cinema, while preserving their rightful liberty of expression, including criticism of Government policy, shall not be used to undermine public order or morality or the authority of the State. > > The publication or utterance of blasphemous, seditious, or indecent matter is an offence which shall be punishable in accordance with law. So you can see while we have freedom of speech, it is far more open to the government to restrict it in certain circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/34 "2010-03-13T17:16:33Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Well, what about 17,000 murders per year in the US? If the US is so good, why do you LIKE having so many murders? We have 17,000 murders a year here primarily as the result of drugs and gangsta culture, both of which are constantly defended by the liberal contingent in this country. > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > “Hate speech” is illegal in France. And, as is typical of government once they have the power to make such decisions, “hate speech” can amount to nothing more than complaint, as shown by the Bardot case I cited upthread. [quote=athelas] > [@](#): > > But the standard of living in any given profession is much lower. Preserving London’s dazzling antique architecture has meant that most of the people I knew had much longer and more expensive commutes than their American counterparts would. They lived in smaller quarters that were hotter in summer and colder in winter. At any given professional level, you found British people doing things that only much poorer Americans would do, like bringing lunch, hanging their clothes to dry, or going without cable (though the Americans I knew said the cable wasn’t worth it anyway). People in Britain are not poor. But they have a noticeably lower standard of living than Americans do. If they were doing it in 1960’s vintage apartment buildings and tract homes, it would be quite obvious. I’d wager this is true for virtually every other European country as well. That’s certainly been my impression from any documentary or profile I’ve seen having to do with people living in Europe. > [@](#): > > The Western European economies, which I take as the living embodiments of social democracy, face a dual crunch: low rates of economic growth and unfavorable demographics. > > The importance of economic growth is obvious, but rarely are the long-range implications of lower growth taken seriously. > > If a country grows at two percent per annum, rather than one percent, the difference in wealth or welfare in a single year is relatively small. Over time the difference becomes very large. For instance, had America grown one percentage point less per year, between 1870 and 1990, the America of 1990 would be no richer than the Mexico of 1990. Exactly. And what is the reason for their slow economic growth? High tax rates and quasi-socialistic income redistribution. > [@athelas](#): > > Of course affluent SWPL liberals won’t really care if the society at large is worse off, as long as their own status as the enlightened ones is preserved. Also liberals in general won’t care as long as no particular group has more than any other. “Mediocrity for all!” could be their battle cry. Plus liberals at large care far less about affluence than does your average acheiver. They’re perfectly happy to walk, ride buses, carpool, wear sandals and live in small, cheap spaces. To do otherwise strikes them as wasteful. And they love to rail against people who drive SUVs, wear nice clothing and jewelry, and live in large houses. To them the money spent on these things is money that should rightfully be going to government to spend on everyone else. And they’re quite happy to live with little as long as the government takes care of them and they don’t have to worry about taking care of themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/35 "2010-03-13T17:20:33Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > How about, in relationship to many of the countries of Europe, America is still in its teen-aged years? I’d say more like in its productive adult years, having not yet reached old age and infirmity where its population’s needs have to be taken care of by everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/36 "2010-03-13T17:30:28Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’d say more like in its productive adult years, having not yet reached old age and infirmity where its population’s needs have to be taken care of by everyone else. Indeed in the West America is the only vigourous and rising power left. The world is leaving Europe to irrelevance-the future will see a Pacific oriented world in a Sino-America-Indian dominance rather than the current Atlantic oriented Euro-American one. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/37 "2010-03-13T17:44:02Z")
That’s right. And why? Because entreprenurialism and a strong work ethic prevail in the East, whereas shorter hours, union interference and government-provided care is the order of the day in Europe. Not too long ago a friend of mine from France and I were sitting having a beer when a single mother we both knew came up to join us. Soon the subject of her kids came up. He said “You have two kids, right?” She said yes. He said, “Then you should move to France. In France the government will pay you $2,600 a month and you wouldn’t even have to work.” I didn’t say anything but I knew that people can’t simply immigrate to France on a whim. You have to meet certain criteria in terms of employment and providing your own health care and doing work that most French people can’t do and so forth. But still, it shows the mentality that comes from entitlement programs, and it explains why Europe is becoming an increasingly insignificant player on the world stage. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/38 "2010-03-13T19:08:41Z")
We are, as usual, stunned by the prodigious research that informs your all-encompassing world view. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/39 "2010-03-13T19:38:56Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Not according to the premier expert on Chick tracts (and no the site is not pro-Chick nor is it anti-Chick) and it includes a \*Washington Post \*article: [http://monsterwax.tripod.com/chicklaws.html](http://monsterwax.tripod.com/chicklaws.html) Read this article carefully, and tell me; **where does it actually provide an example of a law, order in council, or case law that has ever actually existed in Canada that made Chick tracts illegal?** It doesn’t, of course, because there are no such things. It does claim the Attorney General somehow single handedly banned two Chick tracts. But he didn’t, since that would be quite impossible (he did CALL for it, just as many American politicians have called for restrictions on free speech. But politicians can say anything they want; it doesn’t make it law.) You need to acquaint yourself with facts before making claims. Be careful about unsupported claims, because on the Internet they tend to multiply; you can find 500 sites that say Chick tracts were “banned” in some unspecified way in Canada, but if you actually examine them you’ll notice it’s always a variation of one of three or four versions of the story, and there is no actual reference to a primary source. The site you’re using there is ridiculously ignorant. You’ll find Chick tracts here and there in Canada, especially in and around fundamentalist churches. They’re not illegal. > [@](#): > > Cite? Plus unlike say Canada or Sweden, America’s population includes significantly poor minority groups while the other nations are most homogeneous. Canada is probably the most racially heterogenous country in the Western world. One in every six residents was not born here. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Lurker\_Above](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@The\_Lurker\_Above](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Lurker_Above)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/40 "2010-03-13T19:48:09Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Not according to the premier expert on Chick tracts (and no the site is not pro-Chick nor is it anti-Chick) and it includes a \*Washington Post \*article: [http://monsterwax.tripod.com/chicklaws.html](http://monsterwax.tripod.com/chicklaws.html) You did note that the citation for the ‘banning’ is a link to a reprint of a statement in the Oct 1983 edition of Battlecry, Chick’s newspaper. The Washington post article made no mention of it. Oh! and here’s a link to buy em in Canada, from an address not 15 minutes from my house. > **[Chick.com: International Bookstores](https://www.chick.com/information/international-bookstores)** > > Our products are available from bookstores located in many different countries. Find the one nearest to you. If that’s your idea of an non-pro-Chick website I really don’t know what to say. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Cite? Plus unlike say Canada or Sweden, America’s population includes significantly poor minority groups while the other nations are most homogeneous. Canada counts as homogeneous? Dude, have you ever been here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329.md?page=3)