# Is America Really Backward Compared to the Rest of the West **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2010, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329 "2010-03-13T05:30:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/41 "2010-03-13T19:48:31Z")
> [@](#): > > One in every six residents was not born here. One in six won’t _admit_ they were born there, not the same thing at all. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/42 "2010-03-13T19:50:52Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > We are, as usual, stunned by the prodigious research that informs your all-encompassing world view. And I, as usual, am stunned by the implication that volume upon volume of research, containing thousands upon thousands of pages detailing thousands upon thousands of facts and figures, would make the slightest difference in your world view. 😉 You know as well as I do how it works. Facts and figures only matter if they support _your_ side - otherwise they’re ignored. So that leaves us with things that are innate, such as common sense, judgement and the lessons of life experience. Certainly each of those will tell you that you’re going to come up short if you live in a country whose government decrees you work less hours, in a silly, unworkable attempt to deal with unemployment, rather than by…oh, I don’t know…having an economy that _increases job creation_! Or that if you will give people money and relieve them of the necessity to work, they will _take the money and stop working, and they’ll tell other people to do the same_! And that if you want to coast through life taking it easy and letting the government provide for your needs, you’re going to be surpassed in almost every positive measure by societies _that are entreprenurial, hard working and productive_. Perhaps I’ll see if I can find all this written down somewhere as you seem to find these notions incredible. (Perhaps a fifth-grade social studies book from the fifties would suffice, for I doubt we’ll find such information anywhere in today’s leftie-driven curriculum, as illustrated perfectly by [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=555676) where some leftie is complaining about conservative attempts to include these very things in school books now). ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/43 "2010-03-13T19:51:41Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > We have 17,000 murders a year here primarily as the result of drugs and gangsta culture, both of which are constantly defended by the liberal contingent in this country. > Exactly. And what is the reason for their slow economic growth? High tax rates and quasi-socialistic income redistribution. > > Also liberals in general won’t care as long as no particular group has more than any other. “Mediocrity for all!” could be their battle cry. > > Plus liberals at large care far less about affluence than does your average acheiver. They’re perfectly happy to walk, ride buses, carpool, wear sandals and live in small, cheap spaces. To do otherwise strikes them as wasteful. And they love to rail against people who drive SUVs, wear nice clothing and jewelry, and live in large houses. To them the money spent on these things is money that should rightfully be going to government to spend on everyone else. And they’re quite happy to live with little as long as the government takes care of them and they don’t have to worry about taking care of themselves. One of the reasons liberals support drug decriminalization is the hopes that it will remove some of the incentives to participate in gang culture as well as much of their funding. GDP growth in socialized nations is just as rapid as US GDP growth. As is discussed many times in this forum, our health care system actually inhibits GDP growth. It encourages bankruptcy and foreclosure (which screws up consumer lending and the mortgage industry), discourages small business and independent work, causes job lock, marriage lock, wastes a huge % of our GDP, etc. And if we didn’t have social security, you’d have more and more people in their 60s who couldn’t retire due to poverty. That means they wouldn’t be replaced by younger, healthier, more innovative workers in their 20s. So two of the biggest foundations of the welfare state (elderly pensions and universal health care) tend to grow the economy because they allow a new generation to move into the workforce while also giving more stability and security to the public. Universal education (which costs a trillion in public funds in the US) is arguably a sign of the welfare state and also necessary to keep our economy functioning. I can’t find the stats, but according to Paul Krugman after you subtract the role of immigration, GDP growth for the US is on par with Europe. To the degree that liberals are not as focused on material possessions, it is a lifestyle choice usually born out of a realization of the importance of family, leisure, quality of life, introspection, environmental sustainability and health combined with the realization that a lower material standard of living may be needed to ‘have it all’. However that is a far cry from assuming everyone who doesn’t share those values is evil. You should debate with real liberals, not with stereotypical strawmen you invent solely to knock down. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/44 "2010-03-13T19:59:09Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > \ > I do because unlike you I think everyone including racists and bigots should say what they want to say, write what they want to write, publish what they want to publish. For instance the law you cited has a double standard. Why not ban inciting class hatred too-especially when communists attack the upper class? Eh, different strokes for different folks. I’m happy living in a country that puts some onus on its citizens to not be jerks just because they can. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/45 "2010-03-13T20:03:51Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > That’s right. And why? Because entreprenurialism and a strong work ethic prevail in the East, whereas shorter hours, union interference and government-provided care is the order of the day in Europe. > > Not too long ago a friend of mine from France and I were sitting having a beer when a single mother we both knew came up to join us. Soon the subject of her kids came up. He said “You have two kids, right?” She said yes. He said, “Then you should move to France. In France the government will pay you $2,600 a month and you wouldn’t even have to work.” > > I didn’t say anything but I knew that people can’t simply immigrate to France on a whim. You have to meet certain criteria in terms of employment and providing your own health care and doing work that most French people can’t do and so forth. But still, it shows the mentality that comes from entitlement programs, and it explains why Europe is becoming an increasingly insignificant player on the world stage. The reason France does that is their birth rate is low, and they worry 30 years from now they will not have the labor force necessary to keep their society running. Another fear is they may have to use mass immigration to supply the labor needed, which may change French culture dramatically. Either way, you are criticizing a nation for planning 30 years into the future. Government provided care exists in the east. South Korea, Japan, Singapore and Taiwan all have universal health care systems. China is trying to implement one. On the subject of China, labor unrest has become so severe that the government has loosened the standards to join a union. They are also working on a pension plan for the elderly. The world isn’t as simple and black/white as you describe it. The nations you laud as the scions of the future because you feel they are hard working and individualistic have universal education, pensions for the elderly, labor protections, environmental protections and universal health care. If they don’t, they are trying to implement them. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/46 "2010-03-13T20:09:34Z")
Here’s an interesting page: [Countries ranked by value of exports](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2078rank.html). Hmm, is that socialist Germany, with a generous welfare state, strong unions, long vacations, limited working hours, and only 80 million people, exporting more than the USA does? No hard work or entrepreneurship going on there! Of course, different markets etc, but to listen to the frothing right-wingers in this thread you’d get the impression that everyone in Europe is sitting around all day suckling off the government teat. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/47 "2010-03-13T20:16:53Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > One of the reasons liberals support drug decriminalization is the hopes that it will remove some of the incentives to participate in gang culture as well as much of their funding. And how is drug legalization going to deal with murders committed by people wacked out on drugs, which is a common occurance? And how is going to deal with a thriving black market supported by the fact that druggies will go for cheaper black market drugs that those licensed and taxed to the hilt by the government? And besides, most of the talk I hear about drug legalization has to do with marijuana. How is legalizing marijuana going to reduce criminal activity caused by cocaine, heroin and methamphetemine? And if those drugs are legalized you’re increasing their usage and therefore the number of murders and other crimes committed by people wacked out on them, not mention other consequences such as automobile accidents and psychological damage. I’ve known some people who’ve been permanently damaged mentally and psychologically by meth. As for the rest of your post, I don’t accept for one minute that socialized medicine is less costly, tit for tat, than profit-driven medicine. You know what they say, figures don’t lie but liars figure. How many people have you personally known who’s had to declare bankruptcy because of medical bills? I don’t know any, and I know lots of people who have insurance and lots of people who don’t. And about the only time I read about it is when some government health care proponent is evangelizing for its creation. So I strongly suspect that the effects of medically driven bankruptcy upon this nation of 300,000,000 people is considerably exaggerated. > [@Baron Greenback](#): > > Of course, different markets etc, but to listen to the frothing right-wingers in this thread you’d get the impression that everyone in Europe is sitting around all day suckling off the government teat. I’ll grant that that might be the impression, but most of us take for granted that most people will know that not everyone in Europe is on the dole. It’s just that enough are for it to be dragging Europe down the drain, with every indication that things will only get worse with time. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/48 "2010-03-13T20:29:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Curtis LeMay > > Also in … Canada freedom of speech is heavily curtailed. > > Spoons wrote: > I’d like to see a cite for this, please. > [@](#): > > The bookshop across the street from my office here in Washington is once again offering America Alone, Mark Steyn’s 2006 polemic about the Muslim diaspora in the West. > > But it now carries this splash on the cover: “Soon to be banned in Canada.” > > Inside the latest edition, Steyn, a conservative New Hampshire-based columnist who writes regularly for a number of Canadian publications, advises the reader: “If you’re browsing this in a Canadian bookstore, you may well be holding a bona fide ‘hate crime’ in your hand.” > > That is a bit of self-promotion, of course, designed to sell even more copies of a book that is already a New York Times bestseller. It also happens to be true… > > As I have often tried to explain to my American colleagues, we Canadians simply don’t have a history of free speech comparable to what exists in the U.S. > > Our institutions have been controlling speech and information for so long that we barely blink at things that would shock an American. [http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/06/13/f-rfa-macdonald.html](http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/06/13/f-rfa-macdonald.html) ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/49 "2010-03-13T20:36:13Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And, as is typical of government once they have the power to make such decisions, “hate speech” can amount to nothing more than complaint, as shown by the Bardot case I cited upthread. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/50 "2010-03-13T20:42:12Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Europe is [poorer](http://www.theatlantic.com/personal/archive/2010/01/the-difference-between-the-us-and-europe/33554/) and its model of social democracy is [doomed](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&esrch=FT1&q=%22tyler+cowen%22+europe+crooked+timber&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=) by shrinking demographics. (Note that the relative poverty of Europe is [masked](http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2009/08/the-magic-of-europe/23749/) to American tourists by the pretty antique buildings.) > > Of course affluent SWPL liberals won’t really care if the society at large is worse off, as long as their own status as the enlightened ones is preserved. And their affluence can insulate them to an extent from the wealth-destroying consequences of their ideology. I suppose your post is a testament to the abysmal state of American education standards these days. Europe is poorer than the USA because … Europeans hang out their washing to dry? Are you shitting me? Posts like this from upstarts like you crack me the fuck up. My house is older than your country. European states will still be here in another 1000 years, just like they were 1000 years past. Your country will be lucky to reach its 300th anniversary, the way things are going. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/51 "2010-03-13T20:43:08Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The reason France does that is their birth rate is low, and they worry 30 years from now they will not have the labor force necessary to keep their society running. Another fear is they may have to use mass immigration to supply the labor needed, which may change French culture dramatically. > > Either way, you are criticizing a nation for planning 30 years into the future. I’m not criticizing France for its immigration policies. They are perfectly valid. What I’m criticizing it for is such things as paying women with two children $2,600 a month…assuming my buddy at the bar was correct of course. Still, it’s the socialistic policies of European countries that is causing the slow economic growth and other difficulties they are faced with, and to whatever degree Asian countries adopt the same practices they will face those same difficulties as well. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/52 "2010-03-13T20:44:29Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > … How many people have you personally known who’s had to declare bankruptcy because of medical bills? I don’t know any …So I strongly suspect … So, not even anecdotal evidence is offered, but the _absence_ of anecdotal evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/53 "2010-03-13T20:46:16Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > I suppose your post is a testament to the abysmal state of American education standards these days. Europe is poorer than the USA because … Europeans hang out their washing to dry? Are you shitting me? > > Posts like this from upstarts like you crack me the fuck up. My house is older than your country. European states will still be here in another 1000 years, just like they were 1000 years past. Your country will be lucky to reach its 300th anniversary, the way things are going. Oh, it’ll get there, all right. But to the degree that liberal politics rule the day it will be a shadow of its former self. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/54 "2010-03-13T21:02:40Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Our institutions have been controlling speech and information for so long that we barely blink at things that would shock an American. This illustrates how people become inured to things, and which, IMO, is much of the reason why people in European countries say they’re happy with things the way they are - they’ve gotten used to them and no longer have a frame of reference, if they ever did to begin with. This country is unique in that it was founded with the idea in mind of keeping its citizenry as free from government control as possible, and in limiting and spelling out clearly just what the proper role of government was to be. Unfortunately both of those tenets have been under increasing assault by the left in this country over the last hundred years, with the result being that we are now losing our edge as a world leader and are becoming more and more like the stagnating countries of Europe - and with government similarly more and more in our face as well. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/55 "2010-03-13T21:02:59Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > [Free speech, eh? Why is Canada prosecuting Mark Steyn? | CBC News](http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/06/13/f-rfa-macdonald.html) > [@](#): > > The bookshop across the street from my office here in Washington is once again offering America Alone, Mark Steyn’s 2006 polemic about the Muslim diaspora in the West. > > But it now carries this splash on the cover: “Soon to be banned in Canada.” > > Inside the latest edition, Steyn, a conservative New Hampshire-based columnist who writes regularly for a number of Canadian publications, advises the reader: “If you’re browsing this in a Canadian bookstore, you may well be holding a bona fide ‘hate crime’ in your hand.” > > That is a bit of self-promotion, of course, designed to sell even more copies of a book that is already a New York Times bestseller. It also happens to be true… > > As I have often tried to explain to my American colleagues, we Canadians simply don’t have a history of free speech comparable to what exists in the U.S. > > Our institutions have been controlling speech and information for so long that we barely blink at things that would shock an American. The paperback edition with the subheading “Soon to be Banned in Canada” was issued in April of 2008, just about two years ago. When should we expect the banning? The proponents of the OP’s position (and the OP) are remarkably free from factual content in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/56 "2010-03-13T21:04:17Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > [Free speech, eh? Why is Canada prosecuting Mark Steyn? | CBC News](http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/06/13/f-rfa-macdonald.html) They’re doing a pretty bad job of banning this in Canada… > **[America Alone: The End of the World As We Know It: Steyn, Mark: 9780895260789:...](https://www.amazon.ca/America-Alone-End-World-Know/dp/0895260786)** > > America Alone: The End of the World As We Know It: Steyn, Mark: 9780895260789: Books - Amazon.ca > **[America Alone: The End Of The World As We Know It Book By Mark Steyn, ('tp')...](https://www.indigo.ca/en-ca/america-alone-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it/9781596985278.html)** > > Buy the book America Alone: The End of the World As We Know It by mark steyn at Indigo ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/57 "2010-03-13T21:04:47Z")
Europe comprises dozens of different countries, with vastly different laws and standards of living. For example, the per-capita GDP in the UK is about 7 times that in Macedonia. It’s not very meaningful to compare the USA with Europe as a whole. Comparing the UK with the US, we are on average less well off, but there is more protection for the poor in the form of socialised health care and benefits. The murder rate is far lower, but robbery is more common here. We live is smaller homes due to higher land prices, a consequence of 60 million people living in a country less than half the size of Texas. Anecdotally, the USA strikes me as good place to live if you are well off, but a bad place to live if you are poor. Cherry picking a couple points that show the UK has a long history of racial tolerance: > [@](#): > > On 4 September **1888** , less than a month shy of his 19th birthday, **Gandhi** traveled to **London, England** , to study law at University College London and to train as a barrister. … Although Gandhi experimented with adopting “English” customs— **taking dancing lessons for example** —he could not stomach the bland vegetarian food offered by his landlady and he was always hungry until he found one of London’s few vegetarian restaurants. Influenced by Salt’s book, he joined the Vegetarian Society, was **elected to its executive committee** [10], and started a local Bayswater chapter.[4] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhi#Early\_life\_and\_background](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhi#Early_life_and_background) > [@](#): > > Born in 1857 in British Guiana, **Andrew Watson** came to Glasgow University to acquire a bachelor of arts degree. By the time Watson came to University, aged 19, in November **1875** , he had already played football for Scotland’s leading team, Queens Park. > > Andrew Watson was **capped three times for Scotland** between 1881 and 1882, and is now believed to have been the **first black football** (soccer) player to represent his country. Which are a couple of interesting factoids, but say little about the big picture. > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > In UK there is no legal separation of church and state, with daily worship required by law in public schools. This is untrue. Growing up, I remember we used to recite the lord’s prayer at my first primary school (age 5-10), can’t remember ever doing it at the second one, or at secondary school (age 10-16). That was the sum of my religious indoctrination, unless you count singing carols at Christmas. Speaking as an atheist, I find nothing objectionable about the lord’s prayer. _“And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.”_ Technically, the monarch is the head of the Church of England. In practise, the UK is one of the most secular countries in the world. For example, it’s very rare to hear a politician say anything about God or their beliefs. > [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > For all our racial flaws, and there are many, I think we do a generally better job of upholding racial equality and integration than Europe does; the way Jews, Arabs, and Gypsies are treated even in Western Europe is atrocious, and in the East you’re lucky to make it down the street without being set upon by thugs if you don’t look white. How do you think Jews, Arabs and Gypsies are treated over here? Do you have any cites to demonstrate this? Overt rasism is very rare here. I can’t imagine anyone I know caring if someone was Jewish. I’ll ask the Algerian guy at work when he last came across any racism. > [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > We have a better attitude towards civil liberties, in that we respect the concept at all whereas in Europe you have no right to say what you want, read what you want, own a gun, or be secure from a search, and the government may do whatever 51% of the legislature wishes in those areas. Prosecutions based on censorship are incredibly rare. Here is a link about police “stop and search” powers in the UK, it’s hardly draconian: [http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/powers/stop-and-search/](http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/powers/stop-and-search/) Police need some powers if they are to be at all effective. Whether you consider “the right to own a gun” to be significant is a matter of opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/58 "2010-03-13T21:09:04Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > This illustrates how people become inured to things, and which, IMO, is much of the reason why people in European countries say they’re happy with things the way they are - they’ve gotten used to them and no longer have a frame of reference, if they ever did to begin with. That seems unreasonable. I mean, by that basis, I could argue that your disapproval of lefties is as a result of you no longer having a frame of reference thanks to your own “used-tos”. I really don’t like arguments like this. Disagreeing is fair enough, but this is dismissal; not only are their arguments wrong, but they are made inherently invalid. Oddly enough, it would seem to be at odds with your assertion of the power of common sense et al, since those are the kind of things that are affected by the circumstances you’re talking about here. Pointing out that people can have problems with these things is pointing out they can have problems with them in general - you’ve made the point that statistics can be used by either side to support their arguments, but you seem to have not applied that logic to common sense and so on, which suffer from the same problem (and if anything, a much greater one, since at least with statistics you’re \*somewhat \*constrained by outside events). ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/59 "2010-03-13T21:10:43Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > This illustrates how people become inured to things, and which, IMO, is much of the reason why people in European countries say they’re happy with things the way they are - they’ve gotten used to them and no longer have a frame of reference, if they ever did to begin with. Teach us, oh wise one, in the ways of America. Preferably by means of relaying a serendipitous conversation you’ve had at bar. Thanks in advance. “I was talking to this French dude, right, and then this single mother showed up!” My anecdote is my cite. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/60 "2010-03-13T21:25:39Z")
[QUOTE=Cheon019] The bookshop across the street from my office here in Washington is once again offering America Alone, Mark Steyn’s 2006 polemic about the Muslim diaspora in the West. But it now carries this splash on the cover: “Soon to be banned in Canada.” [/QUOTE] Still available in Canada. How about that. Perhaps… just perhaps… it was a marketing ploy? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329.md?page=4)