# Is America Really Backward Compared to the Rest of the West **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2010, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329 "2010-03-13T05:30:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/81 "2010-03-13T23:32:47Z")
I’d be against prayer being legally required in schools, though i’m still uncertain that it is. Generally I suppose the answer to “why?” for that one is simply that it’s already there and there isn’t a huge amount of support for changing it (considering the lack of people who knew about it, perhaps that lack of knowledge is one reason). The monarchy make us a reasonable amount of money. Some people like the idea of having a monarchy, even if it doesn’t (or especially if it doesn’t) actually try to do anything - i’ll say one thing for it, it means that we don’t over here have such a preponderance of politicians wrapping themselves in the flag or declaring their patriotism and lack of same from opponents, and it means our Prime Minister isn’t seen as the embodiment of the nation so much as the President of the U.S. is. Faith schools are generally pretty good. Your summation is a bit poor there - after all, taxpayers are paying for religious education in many schools, not just faith schools, and that’s a good idea because religion affects the world in many ways. The problematic question there is not whether religion is being taught, but perhaps rather whether religion is being pushed at or foisted on pupils at those schools. Generally it tends not to be - and in those cases where it does seem that a school is being less than balanced in its approach, there tends to be rather a large outcry in the media. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/82 "2010-03-13T23:39:59Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Cite? Plus unlike say Canada or Sweden, America’s population includes significantly poor minority groups while the other nations are most homogeneous. You did read where I said I saw it on the news, right? A small amount of Google-fu shows that it’s a report by the [OECD](http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/11/19/US-slipping-in-education-rankings/UPI-90221227104776/). And I was wrong, by the way: America ranks 18th out of 36 industrialized nations, which is better than what I quoted, but certainly not great, compared to where we used to rank. South Korea ranked number one in percentage graduated. Are you seriously trying to say that their poverty rates are lower than the U.S.? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/83 "2010-03-13T23:43:58Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > What’s wrong with a lack of separation between church and state? Do I really have to get into this? And it has nothing to do with their not resembling the United States. As you’ll see in a moment when I get back to it, I won’t spare the US from criticism. Who the fuck cares? You should. Why do I care? I don’t care as much as you seem to think I do. I’m not on the streets protesting, I’m not sending money to British militants. I’m having a discussion on the internet. > > The glorious US of A is afflicted with a cancer that is its shockingly high amount of religious fundamentalists. However, in this one regard, the US actually has something to be proud of. We have a legal separation promised to us by our constitution. As of now, our laws are guided by the religious convictions of our lawmakers, unfortunately. But at least with that separation outlined in the constitution, we have an instrument with which to eventually compel change. The outcome is the same in both cases, so, who cares? We nominally have a state religion. It doesn’t impact one iota on the lives of British people. It doesn’t stop the practice of other faiths, nor does it stop citizens with other faiths working in government. So again, why should we give a shit? (FWIW, I’m not even CoE, I’m a Catholic.) ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/84 "2010-03-13T23:50:18Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > “Prayer is legally required in schools.” > “It’s not so bad, it’s pretty inoffensive.” > > “There is a monarchy!” > “It doesn’t have much power at all.” > > “Taxpayers are paying for religious education at segregated faith schools.” > “Those schools still have to meet standards.” > > These responses are pretty typical, but they’re apologist and don’t answer the question of _why_? These things shouldn’t be tolerated at all. Just because it’s “not so bad” doesn’t excuse it. Eh? It is how it is, it’s not as if these things have sprung up newly-formed. If any of them ever becomes a huge issue, and enough people agree, it’ll get changed. _shrug_ If they don’t then _shrug_. The UK doesn’t really have a set of founding documents like the US does, there’s no Year Zero, it’s been a long shift to get where we are, and it seems a little odd sometimes that some Americans bind to a catechism that they are convinced is inviolate. It’s almost as if the Constitution (plus amendments) were written on tablets of stone. And who’d have thunk that! ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/85 "2010-03-13T23:56:03Z")
Because in each case, the reality is far different from what you are portraying. Remember, I live here. > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > “Prayer is legally required in schools.” > “It’s not so bad, it’s pretty inoffensive.” Really, so what? No-one was actually trying to turn us into Christians or anything. I’m against compulsary prayer, but I think it’s an unimportant issue compared to the standard of education provided. Reading up on this, parents have the right to excuse their children from any act of worship: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School\_prayer#United\_Kingdom](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_prayer#United_Kingdom) > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > “There is a monarchy!” > “It doesn’t have much power at all.” The queen is politically neutral. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional\_monarch](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_monarch) The fact that the queen has no real political power is in fact a pretty good reason to say the monarchy is unimportant. > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > “Taxpayers are paying for religious education at segregated faith schools.” > “Those schools still have to meet standards.” Pupils aren’t randomly assigned to faith schools, their parents send them there by choice. I’m not in favour of supressing religion. Children are entitled to an education, so I have no problem with public money going to a faith school, provided it meets educational standards. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/86 "2010-03-14T00:05:47Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > These responses are pretty typical, but they’re apologist and don’t answer the question of _why_? These things shouldn’t be tolerated at all. Just because it’s “not so bad” doesn’t excuse it. Okay, let’s say that we condemn these particular issues as bad. How does that have anything to do with health-care, or other economic policies? ---
**Author:** ![Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tab_Q.Wertus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/87 "2010-03-14T00:08:11Z")
Ok. Seems to me there are not many Europeans active in this thread. So I feel obliged to write a word or two. I’m from Germany and I have seen a lot of Europe’s countries. I’ve been to the wealthy ones and to the poor ones. And seeing the link to the “poor” Europe I expected some creative use of statistics. But we are poorer because we live in smaller quarters? Please! Having a population density of 229/km² (Germany) instead of 32/km² (US of A) tends to make land a little more expensive. Probably something like seven times more expensive. I’ve got the numbers from wikipedia; and by the way: I’m living in what most Germans would call rural Germany - my town has a population density of “only” 249/km². I’m paying 825$ for my 69 m² apartment (per month - just to avoid misunderstandings). And yes, my apartment is hot (up to 90°F) in the summer but not cold (not less then 68°F) in the winter. Having air-condition is uncommon here. But we do have central heating. And isolation. And running water. And what we like to call “walls”. Ok. This might be a misconception fueled by Hollywood and every hurricane news report I watched on CNN, but if I slam a screwdriver as hard as I can into a wall in my apartment I might scratch the paint. If you do this in the US you probably kill your neighbour. Or get at least sued for trying. And don’t get me started on how our power grids and streets compare to yours. As a software engineer I’m paid something like 83.000$ a year. Certainly not enough - if you ask me. And as an unmarried man without children I have to pay roughly 45% of my income for tax and social services (unemployment insurance, health insurance, …). That is a lot more than I like to pay - but who likes to pay taxes? But seeing the sunny side: I have health insurance. If I am sick I see a doctor. If I am to sick to work, I stay at home. And what ever sickness I have - money is not an issue. And my own anecdotal proof: My father was diagnosed with cancer just a month ago. He was treated and he is reasonably well now. And money was - even with just basic insurance - never an issue. I think having this kind of security goes a long way. And by the way: I do eat meat regularly. Are we more enlightened than American? I don’t think so and I strongly object to the “freedom of speech” laws we have in Germany. But America is certainly not more enlightened than us because for its rejection of our health care system. That is one of the things that is good around here. Not without flaws but it is better then the “good ol’ American way”. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/88 "2010-03-14T00:38:54Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’d say more like in its productive adult years, having not yet reached old age and infirmity where its population’s needs have to be taken care of by everyone else. I see that you are speaking in terms of economics. I guess I could have clarified that I was speaking in terms of the behavior and attitudes of its people. The impression I have of most Europeans I meet is of people who, by circumstance, have a larger and lengthier world view than Americans. While Americans (loosely, as a single entity) seem like a teen-ager who has learned how to make some money and accrue power and is ready the impress the world with his skills and intelligence, most Europeans, even the young, appear to me to be more rounded in their values system and psychologically more seasoned. This doesn’t mean a superior or inferior position but rather an observation of how countries develop much in the same way that people do. By the time that teen with money in his pocket and the world by the tail greets his forties he is beginning to recognize things other than his particular goals to accrue wealth and power. As he has aged he has begun to gain wisdom in what is important besides material things, awareness that he is among many, compromise and living well with others, being among those skills. I believe the USA still has a way to go to achieving these markers of seasoned aging. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/89 "2010-03-14T00:57:03Z")
One myth that’s common among conservatives is that Europe is economically stagnating because of their generous government social safety net. That simply isn’t true. Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman [debunks](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/11/opinion/11krugman.html) this: > [@Paul Krugman](#): > > Since 1980, per capita real G.D.P. — which is what matters for living standards — has risen at about the same rate in America and in the E.U. 15: 1.95 percent a year here; 1.83 percent there. > > What about technology? In the late 1990s you could argue that the revolution in information technology was passing Europe by. But Europe has since caught up in many ways. Broadband, in particular, is just about as widespread in Europe as it is in the United States, and it’s much faster and cheaper. > > And what about jobs? Here America arguably does better: European unemployment rates are usually substantially higher than the rate here, and the employed fraction of the population lower. But if your vision is of millions of prime-working-age adults sitting idle, living on the dole, think again. In 2008, 80 percent of adults aged 25 to 54 in the E.U. 15 were employed (and 83 percent in France). That’s about the same as in the United States. Europeans are less likely than we are to work when young or old, but is that entirely a bad thing? > > And Europeans are quite productive, too: they work fewer hours, but output per hour in France and Germany is close to U.S. levels. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/90 "2010-03-14T01:58:59Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > This illustrates how people become inured to things, and which, IMO, is much of the reason why people in European countries say they’re happy with things the way they are - they’ve gotten used to them and no longer have a frame of reference, if they ever did to begin with. > > This country is unique in that it was founded with the idea in mind of keeping its citizenry as free from government control as possible, and in limiting and spelling out clearly just what the proper role of government was to be. > > Unfortunately both of those tenets have been under increasing assault by the left in this country over the last hundred years, with the result being that we are now losing our edge as a world leader and are becoming more and more like the stagnating countries of Europe - and with government similarly more and more in our face as well. Amendment X of the constitution says anything not outlined was up to the states & people to decide. The states & people want a welfare state. So we have one. Have you considered the benefits of a welfare state? Universal health care would be cheaper and would stop many bankruptcies and foreclosures. This would also help stabilize the economy and housing market. Not only that it would increase productivity by ensuring people are free to leave jobs they hate to find better jobs or start their own businesses. Not only that, but people wouldn’t put off medical problems until they got out of hand. With social security you enable elderly workers to leave the workforce, and let younger workers enter. Workers who are more tech saavy, healthier, with better stamina and who demand lower wages. The end result is productivity goes up. A nation without social security would see more and more people working full time in their 70s while people in their 20s and 30s were chronically unemployed. Not only that, but if we had a pension system instead the same thing would happen as happens with health care, you’d get tons of job lock and people who can’t/won’t leave jobs they hate and are bad at because they can’t afford to lose their pensions. The welfare state increases productivity if done right. It makes people more secure, allows people to retire and open their jobs up, gives people more job mobility and freedom, stabilizes the economy (fewer bankruptcies and foreclosures) I really don’t see Europe stagnating the way you feel it is (due to the welfare state). If anything, the Asian miracles may stagnate due to low birth rates. Japan’s population might be cut in half in the next 100 years (from 130 million to 65) due to the low birth rates (which is why nations like France are offering tons of welfare to mothers, especially ones who have a 3rd child, to avoid this fate). The birth rate in China, Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, etc. is extremely low (about 1.3 kids per woman) and their population is becoming elderly rapidly. > **[List of countries by total fertility rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_fertility_rate)** > > This is a list of all sovereign states and dependencies by total fertility rate (TFR): the expected number of children born per woman in her child-bearing years. > The first lists show the most recent year where there is published total fertility rate (TFR) data ranked by sovereign states and dependencies, and are ordered by organization type – intergovernmental, governmental, or non-governmental organization that searched, organized, and published the data. > The United Nations ranking list is b... The countries with the lowest total fertility rate are almost always eastern european ex-USSR states or east asian states that industrialized rapidly. Taiwan and Singapore will not be so amazing in 30 years when they are 30% elderly. In 2055 Japan will have 1.3 workers per elderly retiree. [http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZmU0MWFkODk5MTUxZWI4YWQzNGI0NGMzYmRjZWQyMTQ=](http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZmU0MWFkODk5MTUxZWI4YWQzNGI0NGMzYmRjZWQyMTQ=) My point is that you can condemn France for offering huge incentives for native born French women to have children. But in 50 years France will have enough workers to actually keep their society moving due to those reforms. Japan, Taiwan, possibly China, etc. (the nations you laud as the innovators) will not. They will be crushed by their elderly. Again, the welfare state, when done properly, increases sustainability and productivity. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/91 "2010-03-14T02:17:59Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Taxes are also often indirect; the USA has some of the highest corporate tax rates in the industrialized world. You might think “hey, great, big corporations pay tax instead of me!” but you’re just paying the taxes indirectly, as is everyone; corporations don’t exist in a vacuum and taxing them heavily has distorting effects on economic behaviour and caosts the average person money down the line. How does the VAT affect corporate tax rates in the UK? To the best of my understanding, if you buy raw materials for 100 pounds and sell them for 175 pounds, you pay VAT on the 75 pounds. Is that right? Does the VAT count in your accounting of corporate taxes? Not being argumentative, just trying to understand. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/92 "2010-03-14T02:53:27Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Also in Europe and Canada freedom of speech is heavily curtailed. **Most notably are the banning of the denial of the Holocaust and displays of the Swastika (even in video games!) in Germany, Austria, and other countries.** In Sweden a minister was prosecuted for calling homosexuality a sin. In Canada Chick tracts are banned. While you may disagree with their viewpoints everyone should have the right to say what they want as long as it is not libel or slander-and yes that includes Holocaust denial. You know, it’s sickening that one can be so myopic as to use this as a criticism of Europe. Any time some American wants to paint a picture of some scary freedom of speech curtailment, they bring this shit up. Get over yourself, the world does not revolve around you. What if tens of millions of people were killed in your backyard? What if most of your friends, your neighbors, and your relatives were complacent about it, or collaborated? What if they started a race war with the goal of conquering the whole fucking world like some kind of comic book supervillain? You think that those who survive wouldn’t put just a little bit of thought into making sure that doesn’t happen again? You have no fucking idea so don’t talk shit about their laws on Holocaust denial! The fact is, Europe and America are pretty much the same in freedoms of speech. It just so happens they’ve seen a lot of death and destruction on their soil, happen to their friends and neighbors, than you will ever see. They are just as free as us and it is absolutely RIGHT for them to ban Holocaust denial and the swastika because they can drive to work and pass q fucking concentration camp every god damn day! I am unimpressed by anyone whining that they should be able to say that. As far as I’m concerned, Holocaust denial should be an arrestable crime anywhere in the former Axis and Allied states. It happened, and it was so horrible that anything done to prevent it from happening is ok. As for your other objections, that is progress and that contradicts your idea that America is not backwards. Being gay is not a sin and Chick Tracts are dangerous propaganda. They should be banned. There is not a lick of proof supporting them or a good argument upholding why they should be allowed. If you want to be a liar and tell lies, people should be able to see clearly that what you’re saying is a bunch of bullshit. Having the government ban such inciteful actions is the correct thing to do, because both that priest and Jack Chick don’t know shit about the truth. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/93 "2010-03-14T03:13:06Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > How does the VAT affect corporate tax rates in the UK? To the best of my understanding, if you buy raw materials for 100 pounds and sell them for 175 pounds, you pay VAT on the 75 pounds. Is that right? Does the VAT count in your accounting of corporate taxes? I’ve only spent a week of my life in the UK so I’m not sure. 🙂 However, the GST in Canada - our VAT, for all intents - works pretty much the same way. A company pays the difference between the chargeable GST on all the goods and services they sell and the GST they paid for all inputs. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/94 "2010-03-14T03:26:24Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Canada is probably the most racially heterogenous country in the Western world. One in every six residents was not born here. You guys (proportionally speaking) get more immigrants from East Asia and India than Mexico, although you probably also get some immigrants from Haiti and the poorer Commonwealth states. > [@The\_Lurker\_Above](#): > > If that’s your idea of an non-pro-Chick website I really don’t know what to say. The website includes both pro-Chick people and anti-Chick people (including a neo-pagan). > [@Chefguy](#): > > You did read where I said I saw it on the news, right? A small amount of Google-fu shows that it’s a report by the [OECD](http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/11/19/US-slipping-in-education-rankings/UPI-90221227104776/). And I was wrong, by the way: America ranks 18th out of 36 industrialized nations, which is better than what I quoted, but certainly not great, compared to where we used to rank. South Korea ranked number one in percentage graduated. Are you seriously trying to say that their poverty rates are lower than the U.S.? No but Koreans and other East Asians are better motivated for education by culture than whites, blacks, or Hispanics. This is not a claim to cultural superiority anymore than saying that “People in Argentina are more culturally practiced to eat meat than those in India”. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > The fact is, Europe and America are pretty much the same in freedoms of speech. It just so happens they’ve seen a lot of death and destruction on their soil, happen to their friends and neighbors, than you will ever see. They are just as free as us and it is absolutely RIGHT for them to ban Holocaust denial and the swastika because they can drive to work and pass q fucking concentration camp every god damn day! I am unimpressed by anyone whining that they should be able to say that. As far as I’m concerned, Holocaust denial should be an arrestable crime anywhere in the former Axis and Allied states. It happened, and it was so horrible that anything done to prevent it from happening is ok. > > As for your other objections, that is progress and that contradicts your idea that America is not backwards. Being gay is not a sin and Chick Tracts are dangerous propaganda. They should be banned. There is not a lick of proof supporting them or a good argument upholding why they should be allowed. If you want to be a liar and tell lies, people should be able to see clearly that what you’re saying is a bunch of bullshit. Having the government ban such inciteful actions is the correct thing to do, because both that priest and Jack Chick don’t know shit about the truth. If you don’t think homosexuality is a sin and that Chick Tracts are nonsense than that’s fine- I support your freedom to say it just as I support their freedom to say what they wish. If you want disprove them, than give them facts not ban them! Banning them gives them the martyr card and actually gives them fame in the news (“We’re being persecuted! They’re afraid of us !”). Indeed if what they’re saying is nonsense why do you ban them-why not just disprove them? Do you have so little faith in people that they will become convinced by what they say? How is any different from a Christian fundamentalist advocating banning pornography? How would you like it that since I as a conservative advocated banning atheistic and communist literature? How is that stance any different from yours? All in all a very condemning statement on how some liberals would love to restrict freedom of speech and religion. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/95 "2010-03-14T03:39:44Z")
Which countries in Europe make students pledge to their flag every day and include an affirmation of God? (I mean since the Fascists were defeated) ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/96 "2010-03-14T04:02:43Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Which countries in Europe make students pledge to their flag every day and include an affirmation of God? (I mean since the Fascists were defeated) Not to mention, which countries in Europe put “In God We Trust” on their coins? And, despite separation of church and state in the U.S., any attempts to remove either of those would create a political firestorm. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/97 "2010-03-14T04:15:23Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Of course affluent SWPL liberals . . . “SWPL”? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/98 "2010-03-14T04:19:52Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Enlightenment values also include rationalism and empiricism being preferred over ideology or dogma. The problems in Paris, which are ongoing, are a clear example of misplaced ideology (assuming poorly educated North African and muslim migrants would simply assimilate), rather than rational thought. So the problems are due to an _abandonment_ of enlightenment values in preference for blank slate ideology. Based on the American experience, they’ll assimilate, all right. It just takes time, perhaps a couple of generations. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/99 "2010-03-14T04:26:28Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Not to mention, which countries in Europe put “In God We Trust” on their coins? > > And, despite separation of church and state in the U.S., any attempts to remove either of those would create a political firestorm. America also doesn’t have any state churches which is far more religion in government than some slogan on coins. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2010, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/100 "2010-03-14T04:38:28Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > They’re doing a pretty bad job of banning this in Canada… > [America Alone: The End of the World As We Know It: Steyn, Mark: 9780895260789: Books - Amazon.ca](http://www.amazon.ca/America-Alone-End-World-Know/dp/0895260786) > [America Alone: The End Of The World As We Know It Book By Mark Steyn, ('tp') | Indigo](http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/America-Alone-End-World-We-Mark-Steyn/9781596985278-item.html?ref=Books%3a+Search+Top+Sellers) Mark Steyn’s books (including “America Alone”) are also available at my local library. I think we’ve pretty much put this one to bed - got any other examples of Canada heavily curtailing free speech? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329.md?page=6)