# Is America Really Backward Compared to the Rest of the West **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2010, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329 "2010-03-13T05:30:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/141 "2010-03-15T16:30:26Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > IMO, those parades did more harm to the homosexual rights movement than would a thousand Rush Limbaughs, and echos and images from those parades resonate in people’s minds even to this day and color their perception of gays as people. It may be unpopular to say so, but the in-your-face gay rights activists of those days are to a large degree responsible for the difficulties gays are having in gaining acceptance even to this day. Ah, this explains why gay rights were so much more accepted before the current gay rights movement, and why countries without gay pride parades and gay rights movements are so much more tolerant of gays. Hey, wait… that’s the opposite of reality. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/142 "2010-03-15T18:34:34Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Well, what about 17,000 murders per year in the US? If the US is so good, why do you LIKE having so many murders? We’re trying to catch up to Europe, but it’s so damned hard. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/143 "2010-03-15T19:32:07Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > What’chu talkin’ 'bout, Willis? It proved the definition of “lie”… Liars and lies are irrelevant unless someone believes them; the one who ignorantly repeats the lie is then a trouble-maker but also a victim and, of course, not a “liar” himself. But without the liars you wouldn’t have the problem of ignorant people repeating the lie. This shouldn’t have been hard to figure out, Starving Artist. Maybe you should have used your dictionary research time to employ your noggin instead! 😃 (Was the lie in question the one about Obama’s birthplace? I’d like to hear whether Doper right-wingers approve of the Congressmen who answer “I don’t know” when asked if Obama was born in U.S.A.) ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/144 "2010-03-15T20:32:14Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Liars and lies are irrelevant unless someone believes them; the one who ignorantly repeats the lie is then a trouble-maker but also a victim and, of course, not a “liar” himself. But without the liars you wouldn’t have the problem of ignorant people repeating the lie. > > This shouldn’t have been hard to figure out, Starving Artist. Maybe you should have used your dictionary research time to employ your noggin instead! 😃 They may be irrelevant but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. And what **YogSosoth** was claiming to be lies can’t be characterized that way because a.) he has no way of knowing if the beliefs he calls lies are incorrect; b.) the people stating those beliefs believe them to be true; and c.) there is no intent on their part to knowingly deceive as to the “real” truth, if in fact the real truth differs from theirs. > [@septimus](#): > > (Was the lie in question the one about Obama’s birthplace? I’d like to hear whether Doper right-wingers approve of the Congressmen who answer “I don’t know” when asked if Obama was born in U.S.A.) This particular right-wing Doper doesn’t care, provided they really don’t know. Are you suggesting that it should be the responsibility of every Republican congressman to dig into and verify for themselves the circumstances of Obama’s birth? And what would you expect the reaction of the left would be if they did? I would anticipate accusations of witch-huntery and that these congressmen were leaving no stone unturned in a ridiculous and laughable effort to keep Obama from the presidency myself. And as for the rest of the things asked of me since last night, I’m going to have to let them go unanswered for now. A buddy of mine died unexpectedly last night of a heart attack at the age of 51, and I’m just not in the proper frame of mind right now to give them the time and thought they deserve. My apologies to all. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/145 "2010-03-15T21:01:26Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > And so you’re right and your sociopolitical views are the only correct ones? And no you do not love freedom or else you wouldn’t be advocating censoring almost every conservative or religious figure. The word you’re looking for is “factually”, as in “factually correct”. And the only censoring I’m looking to do is in the public sphere. You can go on lying to your family all you want, but woe be unto you if you try to take that to the public airwaves as a political platform. Christians like you hate lies just as much, if not more so, than I do. It’s one of your commandments. You simply disagree on what is a lie, but if god wanted you to lie, he would have put footnotes on the bottom of those stone tablets. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It’s the exact same thing with religion. Unlike Communism or Socialism, we are not being forced to take it all or leave it. Remember what you’re arguing here. I said those politics have some merits, you disagreed. Is any high chancellor of Communism preaching that people need to give up all their possessions or die? Compare that to how many priests are telling people you’d go to hell if you were religious but fail to follow their draconian edicts on birth control, abortion, or hell, even global warming. So no, your religion is not the same as politics. Communism and socialism have merits we can take out and use. The Post Office has worked for hundreds of years. Governments own property. Eminent Domain, until the Roberts’ Supreme Court decided to expand it’s reach, had been used effectively in the past. Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security have helped millions of people. Those are the benefits of a slightly socialistic system. We can use those. With religion, until you guys drop the all-or-nothing bit, remains a pox on mankind. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Well you’re also imposing your views on everyone or at least censoring opposing ones. (Realize that I am not justifying my beliefs because the opposition does it too.) You guys do it too. If it’s wrong for me, then it is wrong for you, no? My justification for “censoring” things is based on facts. No creationism should ever be taught to kids, unless it’s in the context that they are wrong. Why? Because creationism is a bunch of BS. That’s not censorship, that is fact. Ask yourself why some speech is limited and you’ll find that it’s because of harm. Shouting fire in a theater, slander, making threats of bodily harm on another are all restricted. They are restricted because they can be harmful, and not even physically harmful (saying Paris Hilton is a man might be slander, but it would hardly cause her physical harm). Lies are the same way, and they are in a way worse than that because they aren’t even true. You can say any shit about anybody or anything! That can’t be abused to harm? I reject your conclusion that it is unlawful censorship. There is a great deal of worth in banning lies like religion, Holocaust denials, Chick Tracts, or calling gay people sinners because those things harm people, and inspire others to harm. If you want to gather around in a group lighting candles in front of the Supreme Court every year to protest abortion, fine. But the second people like you start spouting irritating nonsense like abortion is murder and condoning it, doctors like George Tiller get killed. He was completely innocent because you know what? Abortion isn’t murder. Neither is homosexuality a sin. And everything said in a Chick Tract has been wrong. That’s a fact. Those are not. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/146 "2010-03-15T21:06:50Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > They may be irrelevant but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. And what **YogSosoth** was claiming to be lies can’t be characterized that way because a.) he has no way of knowing if the beliefs he calls lies are incorrect; b.) the people stating those beliefs believe them to be true; and c.) there is no intent on their part to knowingly deceive as to the “real” truth, if in fact the real truth differs from theirs. a) They are incorrect because it is impossible for those beliefs to be real. Until such time as evidence is observed and recorded, such crazy things are no different from Bertrand’s Teapot or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. b) Irrelevent. Crazy people believe all sorts of stuff. And it doesn’t prevent others who know the facts from muzzling those who should know better. c) Unfortunately, that kind of traditionalist’s gamble has worked, but should not. Just because it’s always been that way doesn’t mean it should be so. They can and should shut down all religion instruction and replace it with something secular. That would be a good first step in solving this problem ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/147 "2010-03-15T21:09:54Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And how is drug legalization going to deal with murders committed by people wacked out on drugs, which is a common occurance? And how is going to deal with a thriving black market supported by the fact that druggies will go for cheaper black market drugs that those licensed and taxed to the hilt by the government? Taxes should be kept nice and low. The only way to stop criminal gangs is to remove their source of income, and therefore power. Cheap recreational drugs, grass in off licences, E in clubs, crack and smack to be handed out by doctors (as methodone is given to smack heads now). These criminal gangs only came about when the drugs became illegal. Once pharmaceutical companies used to advertise and sell heroin and cocaine. Heroin addicts, even after the drug became illegal, could collect it on prescription, as Aleister Crowley did, for instance. When that was banned the addicts were still addicted and sought a black market source. The black market sources grew to a huge industry with every reason to advertise and spread their poison. The profit motive in action. Hence the current state of affairs. More: 85% of british burglaries are carried out by addicts seeking money for their next fix. Provide the drugs on the NHS, no need for burglaries. Maybe, without the constant threat of a lack of supply or an impure supply they can become productive members of society. Either way, illegal supply networks could be deprived of the vast majority of their income from recreational drugs, addictive drugs and prostitution which would inevitably lead to a decline in related crimes of violence. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/148 "2010-03-15T23:24:23Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > TheAsk yourself why some speech is limited and you’ll find that it’s because of harm. Shouting fire in a theater, slander, making threats of bodily harm on another are all restricted. They are restricted because they can be harmful, and not even physically harmful (saying Paris Hilton is a man might be slander, but it would hardly cause her physical harm). Slander and libel are actionable because they DO cause physical harm of a sort; the loss of reputation is assumed to constitute real damage to a person’s ability to conduct their business. Losing property is harm. Paris Hilton makes money at least in part because of her image as a woman of fashion; spreading the rumour that she’s a man could hurt her earning potential and deprive her of property to which she is rightly entitled. It hurts her just as much as stealing her car. Babbling about creationism doesn’t really cause an individual the same sort of harm. I don’t think such rot should be taught at schools, just the same way we shouldn’t teach children that two plus two is nine, but you can’t be seriously saying that stating religious belief should be a criminal offense? Really, you can’t square banning Chick tracts with being a free country, can you? Forget whether or not the world needs Jack Chick and his bullshit; it doesn’t. But do you actually WANT the apparatus of the state going after ideas just because of which ideas they are? Is that a precedent you really, really want to set? Because, you know, the next President, or the next Congress, might not see things your way. They might decide to ban flag burning. Or atheist literature. Or something you don’t think is so offensive. You’ve already set the precedent that stuff can be banned solely because of its lack of “truth.” All it takes is the wrong person to get elected for that sword to gain a nasty double edge. I’m not saying I disagree with your assessment of what is or is not true. You’re right. There’s no such thing as God; it’s absurd superstition. Creationism is fantasy. Jack Chick’s a bigoted, paranoid nut. But the issue is whether you want the government to use force to stomp on ideas - in fact, you’ve actually boiled it down to using government force to stop people from defining words in ways you don’t like. The government is not a fine instrument, and once you create that power you ain’t getting rid of it easily, so you’ll be very, very sorry when the Republicans are back in power. If you didn’t like the Bush administration, imagine what it would have been like if they could throw atheists in prison for saying God doesn’t exist. Indeed, the logical extent of your position is that we must ban all public statements of religious belief. Did the Soviet Union strike you as being a free place? ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/149 "2010-03-16T02:34:31Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And as for the rest of the things asked of me since last night, I’m going to have to let them go unanswered for now. A buddy of mine died unexpectedly last night of a heart attack at the age of 51, and I’m just not in the proper frame of mind right now to give them the time and thought they deserve. My apologies to all. Irrespective of any political differences we have, I wish you well. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/150 "2010-03-16T04:29:20Z")
Thank you very much. I appreciate your concern. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/151 "2010-03-16T11:06:49Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > … (Septimus asked “I’d like to hear whether Doper right-wingers approve of the Congressmen who answer “I don’t know” when asked if Obama was born in U.S.A.”) This particular right-wing Doper doesn’t care, provided they really don’t know. Are you suggesting that it should be the responsibility of every Republican congressman to dig into and verify for themselves the circumstances of Obama’s birth? And what would you expect the reaction of the left would be if they did? I’m sorry to hear about your friend, Starving Artist, but will pursue this point in case another right-wing Doper can resolve my confusion. There are varying degrees of “knowledge.” I don’t “know” that the plate tectonics theory is true except for what I read in textbooks, and some might argue that those scientists have been hoodwinked by the Devil just to test Christians who might doubt the Earth is only 6000 years old. As a simpler example, few Britons can say they “know” Prince William is the son of the Prince of Wales; a DNA test might confirm but DNA tests can be forged. Yet no one would say they doubt it unless they had evidence or were picking a fight. Is the point clear? Democrats said no outrageous things about GWB’s birth. The Obama birth controversy has no evidence but the incontinent babblings of hypocrites and crazies. I’m sorry, but any right-winger who can’t find it in himself to say “disapprove” to my question, will be regarded by myself as just another deranged hyprocrite; his opinions will be given no credence except for their amusement value. ---
**Author:** ![Baboonanza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f475e1/32.png) [@Baboonanza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baboonanza)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/152 "2010-03-16T11:37:23Z")
This thread seems to have wandered from the original debate, but I thought I’d jump in anyway. As **Revenant Threshold** has said, in the UK we actually have a lot _less_ religous influence on government than you have in the US. We have a load of superficial stuff that is more traditiol then religous, like the Archbishop of Canterbury (who usually is more of a humanist than a religous nut anyway) but none of this makes any difference to the way the country functions. I’d like some of it eliminated, but since it’s harmless I don’t really care. In the US you have a formalised separation of Church and state, but in reality you have exactly the opposite (it seems to me). Even aside from the obvious exceptions to this rule (‘In God We Trust’ etc) religion permeates your politics at every level. For instance, every Presidential candidate in the States must play ‘The God Card’. If they don’t explicitly state that they are practicing Christians and have photoshoots at churches they can’t get elected. In contrast Tony Blair didn’t talk about his religous views because he was afraid people would think he was a loony. He was right, it would actually hurt your chances in this country to be devout in the US style. This is my favourite but of this thread though: > [@DanBlather](#): > > In many European countries prostitution is legal (with restrictions), sex, nudity, and profanity can be shown on broadcast TV, prescription drugs tale less time to get to market, and quack treatments and drugs are more widely available. Those are all example of the conservative ideals of less govt/more freedom aren’t they? > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Banning of the practices you cited are sane and most reasonable regulations by the government. Hilarious! So something is ‘sane and most reasonable’ for the government to regulate as long as it’s something you don’t like. Well, I guess that’s something both Left and Right can agree on, now we just have to iron out the fine details… I’ll start with banning guns, that ok with you? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/153 "2010-03-16T11:51:51Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > How about, in relationship to many of the countries of Europe, America is still in its teen-aged years? Or if you equate 100 years of existence as a nation with one human year, it has just left its “terrible twos” and is now acting like a snot-nosed brat that has just become aware of its place in the world. We’ve still got the USA’s “teen years” to look forward to. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/154 "2010-03-16T12:33:07Z")
> [@Baboonanza](#): > > For instance, every Presidential candidate in the States must play ‘The God Card’. If they don’t explicitly state that they are practicing Christians and have photoshoots at churches they can’t get elected. In contrast Tony Blair didn’t talk about his religous views because he was afraid people would think he was a loony. He was right, it would actually hurt your chances in this country to be devout in the US style. True. The US is a _de jure_ secular country but a _de facto_ religious one, while the UK is the other way around. How far do you think a US politician would get if he said something like [this](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3074541.ece): > [@](#): > > “I have enormous respect for people who have religious faith. I’m married to a Catholic and am committed to bringing my children up as Catholics. > > “However, I myself am not an active believer, but the last thing I would do when talking or thinking about religion is approach it with a closed heart or a closed mind.” That guy leads one of the major political parties in the UK. He’d be lucky to make local councilman in the States. I’m also not entirely sure how to explain how the House of Lords _really_ works to anyone who hasn’t seen them in action. In principle an unelected legislative body packed with hereditary peers, political appointees and bishops ought to be an abomination in a democratic society. In practice, however, they tend to smack down the elected House of Commons whenever they’re trying to do something particularly egregious (for example, they kept rejecting the proposal to extend the period people could be detained without charge under the terrorism laws). All I can say is that it’s a British thing. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/155 "2010-03-16T13:04:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The words of the sentence trudge wearily along, they pray for the release of the period, or even a semi-colon! but find only commas, only commas… Thank you for my laugh of the day. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/156 "2010-03-16T14:56:12Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > True. The US is a _de jure_ secular country but a _de facto_ religious one, while the UK is the other way around. How far do you think a US politician would get if he said something like [this](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3074541.ece):That guy leads one of the major political parties in the UK. He’d be lucky to make local councilman in the States. > > I’m also not entirely sure how to explain how the House of Lords _really_ works to anyone who hasn’t seen them in action. In principle an unelected legislative body packed with hereditary peers, political appointees and bishops ought to be an abomination in a democratic society. In practice, however, they tend to smack down the elected House of Commons whenever they’re trying to do something particularly egregious (for example, they kept rejecting the proposal to extend the period people could be detained without charge under the terrorism laws). All I can say is that it’s a British thing. Yeah. The prime minister of Canada is one of those AMerican-type pharisees. He can trot out the “for God” quotes in the right context. Generally, however, Canada like the Uk is a minefield for people who try to push “for God!”. Consider how many ethnic French-Canadians, Italians, Irish, Portugese and Philipinos we have - most are typically Catholic. Add in the huge immigrant populations from India and Pakistan, China, and even historically from the Ukrain - pushing American-based protestant conservative religion has to be a dangerous thing to do. The little weasel has eked out a minority in the last few elections… I’m British ancestry, and I wouldn’t vote for the guy with a 10 foot pole; and I used to be a riding president for the Conservative party. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/157 "2010-03-16T16:15:20Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > [Free speech, eh? Why is Canada prosecuting Mark Steyn? | CBC News](http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/06/13/f-rfa-macdonald.html) Chen, your cite is utter crap. You have failed to note that Steyn has never had any of his work banned in Canada (and in fact he is an occasional pundit on television, including on the public TVO network), he has never been prosecuted in Canada, the governments in Canada have never tried to ban his work, and the stink alleged in your cite was in fact Human Rights Commissions complaints raised by the Canadian Islamic Congress complaining about not being given space in Maclean’s Magazine (a nationally distributed mainstream magazine) to refute an article by Steyn that was published nationally by Maclean’s. The complaints did not succeed. As far as the Steyn matter goes, free speech is alive an well in Canada. > **[Mark Steyn | Canadian Islamic Congress human rights complaint](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Steyn#Canadian_Islamic_Congress_human_rights_complaint)** > > In 2007, a complaint was filed with the Ontario Human Rights Commission related to Steyn's article, entitled "The Future Belongs to Islam", published in Maclean's magazine. The complainants alleged that the article and the refusal of Maclean's to provide space for a rebuttal violated their human rights. The complainants also claimed that the article was one of twenty-two (22) Maclean's articles, many written by Steyn, about Muslims. Further complaints were filed with the Canadian Human Ri The Ont... ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/158 "2010-03-16T16:18:15Z")
> [@Baboonanza](#): > > This thread seems to have wandered from the original debate, but I thought I’d jump in anyway. > > As **Revenant Threshold** has said, in the UK we actually have a lot _less_ religous influence on government than you have in the US. We have a load of superficial stuff that is more traditiol then religous, like the Archbishop of Canterbury (who usually is more of a humanist than a religous nut anyway) but none of this makes any difference to the way the country functions. I’d like some of it eliminated, but since it’s harmless I don’t really care. > > In the US you have a formalised separation of Church and state, but in reality you have exactly the opposite (it seems to me). Even aside from the obvious exceptions to this rule (‘In God We Trust’ etc) religion permeates your politics at every level. > > For instance, every Presidential candidate in the States must play ‘The God Card’. If they don’t explicitly state that they are practicing Christians and have photoshoots at churches they can’t get elected. In contrast Tony Blair didn’t talk about his religous views because he was afraid people would think he was a loony. He was right, it would actually hurt your chances in this country to be devout in the US style. > \ I find that odd, too - I don’t know what the religion (or level of religiosity) is for any politicians at any level here. That’s private - that’s between the politician and their God (or lack of God). I don’t need to know anything about that. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/159 "2010-03-16T16:22:55Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I think everyone including racists and bigots should say what they want to say, write what they want to write, publish what they want to publish. That is a good example of the USA being really backward. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329/160 "2010-03-16T16:31:06Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > That is a good example of the USA being really backward. I dasagree, but a very good example is DADT and Same-sex marriage. We are embarrasingly backwards on these issues. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-backward-compared-to-the-rest-of-the-west/532329.md?page=9)