# Is America really this homophobic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 29, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004 "2003-04-29T21:22:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004/41 "2003-04-30T01:34:50Z")
BTW, statistically you’re far more likely to be the victim of a gay-bashing in a large city than in a small town. In towns, the prejudice is more omnipresent ostracism than violence, though I suspect that’s true in Canada as well. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004/42 "2003-04-30T01:46:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bo989 \* > \*\* > Beyond the fact that this intolerance doesn’t exist everywhere in America (I could always live in NY, or SF) no one has really offered much evidence to allay my initial fears (except for fessie’s wonderful invitation to come live by the beautiful lakes of Madison). \*\* If you think the United States is filled with a bunch of barbarians just chomping at the bit to bash some homosexuals then maybe you’re better off staying in Canada. If you think we’re filled with so many hateful backwards people I don’t understand why you’d be interested in coming here in the first place. According to the cite **MrVisible** linked there were only 2,475 people were subjected to anti-gay violence in 2000. In 2000 there were only 16 murders attributed to anti-gay motives. Out of all the murders and assaults in the United States that doesn’t seem like a lot to me. I’m not being dismissive I do take crimes motivated by hate seriously. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004/43 "2003-04-30T01:52:34Z")
MrVisible, What does that statistic mean? Were these hate crimes? not sure what you’re getting at. LAX probably has many attacks than that against any demographic group you pick. Bo989, I’m wondering why you want to migrate? Are those 2 weeks of bad skiing tempting you? Sorry, haven’t had a chance to tease a Canadian recently. Seriously, any place you go in the world that will attack you for your “gayness” will also attack me for my “middle-aged-pasty-white-male-nurdness”. There is always someplace that isn’t safe to wander into. I would probably stay away from Saudi Arabia. Not sure what they might cut off. Why don’t You share your Canadian experiences and maybe we can compare notes. ---
**Author:** ![bo989](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@bo989](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bo989)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004/44 "2003-04-30T01:57:07Z")
lol… great post sampiro. ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004/45 "2003-04-30T02:24:21Z")
You have to subscribe to Gallup now, but here’s the results of their 2002 poll on homosexuality. 52% agree that homosexuality is an “acceptable alternative lifestyle.” It is interesting to note that America’s view of homosexuality is becoming more and more liberal. While a majority of people might find homosexuality wrong (I couldn’t find exact, up-to-date percentages) the difference in the groups is slim, at most 55% to 45%. In 1996 59% believed that homosexuality was morally wrong and the percentage has probably dropped further. ---
**Author:** ![bo989](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@bo989](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bo989)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004/46 "2003-04-30T02:27:57Z")
ava: is gallop an american polling agency? If so, that’s good news. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004/47 "2003-04-30T02:28:16Z")
> [@](#): > > This is probably a long-shot, but are there any gay Canadian dopers out there who have personally been bashed? I sincerely hope this question goes unanswered… Unfortunately not. We might have it better, but we sure as hell haven’t got it perfect. One bashing a week was reported in Montreal to the gay and lesbian antiviolence group Dire Enfin la Violence - until it was closed due to gov’t cutbacks :rolleyes: . A man called Aaron Webster was murdered in Vancouver last year, sparking an outcry. I’ve been threatened with bashing; a friend of **Hamish** ’s once had his life threatened (by the police, no less) for presuming to look at them. There’s less to fear in Canada, not nothing. ---
**Author:** ![elfbabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b782af/32.png) [@elfbabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfbabe)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004/48 "2003-04-30T02:28:26Z")
Hey **bo989**! I’ll trade citizenships with you. 😃 While I can’t really address the gay-bashing issue any better than people already have, you may also be concerned about the general political climate. Even if you find the most gay-friendly place in America and never personally encounter any problems due to your orientation, you’re still going to be much more exposed to other people’s non-gay-friendly attitudes, on a personal, organizational, or governmental level. Sodomy laws, sex education that teaches that the only non-psychologically-damaging sex is in heterosexual marriage, states actively banning gay marriages/civil unions/shirleys/whatever, gay bashing that happens to other people… You’re going to hear about these things more, and you’re going to be living in the same country. If it doesn’t bother you, then move somewhere tolerant, and be happy. If you are likely to be like me and react by stomping around angrily, wanting to throw things at the tv/computer/elected official, and losing faith in humanity for a little while, you may not be as happy here as you’d hoped. ---
**Author:** ![bo989](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@bo989](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bo989)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004/49 "2003-04-30T02:30:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > \*\*If you think the United States is filled with a bunch of barbarians just chomping at the bit to bash some homosexuals then maybe you’re better off staying in Canada. If you think we’re filled with so many hateful backwards people I don’t understand why you’d be interested in coming here in the first place. > > According to the cite **MrVisible** linked there were only 2,475 people were subjected to anti-gay violence in 2000. In 2000 there were only 16 murders attributed to anti-gay motives. Out of all the murders and assaults in the United States that doesn’t seem like a lot to me. I’m not being dismissive I do take crimes motivated by hate seriously. > > Marc \*\* Since I’ve been careful to not put words into other’s mouths, I would apprecite the same treatment. I don’t think the United States is filled with a bunch of ‘barbarians’. I never said anything so extreme. However, the level of cultural and institutional tolerance towards gays is an important issue I am concerned with. Next time, skip the liberal paraphrasing. With regards to your numbers… if one was to simply take them at face value they still don’t say much. 16 murders… that sounds low. But I’m not particularly concerned with getting murdered. I am concerned with verbal and physical abuse though. Do you have numbers for that? ---
**Author:** ![bo989](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@bo989](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bo989)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004/50 "2003-04-30T02:33:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*Unfortunately not. We might have it better, but we sure as hell haven’t got it perfect. > > One bashing a week was reported in Montreal to the gay and lesbian antiviolence group Dire Enfin la Violence - until it was closed due to gov’t cutbacks :rolleyes: . A man called Aaron Webster was murdered in Vancouver last year, sparking an outcry. > > I’ve been threatened with bashing; a friend of **Hamish** ’s once had his life threatened (by the police, no less) for presuming to look at them. > > There’s less to fear in Canada, not nothing. \*\* I was hoping no one would respond, but knew someone would. There is much work to be done everywhere. That’s what the SDMB is all about, afterall. ---
**Author:** ![bo989](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@bo989](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bo989)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004/51 "2003-04-30T02:41:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magiver \* > \*\*MrVisible, What does that statistic mean? Were these hate crimes? not sure what you’re getting at. LAX probably has many attacks than that against any demographic group you pick. > > Bo989, I’m wondering why you want to migrate? Are those 2 weeks of bad skiing tempting you? Sorry, haven’t had a chance to tease a Canadian recently. > > Seriously, any place you go in the world that will attack you for your “gayness” will also attack me for my “middle-aged-pasty-white-male-nurdness”. There is always someplace that isn’t safe to wander into. I would probably stay away from Saudi Arabia. Not sure what they might cut off. > > Why don’t You share your Canadian experiences and maybe we can compare notes. \*\* Wow… a very tough question. I’ll intially respond by just giving you a list of reasons, in no particular order of importance. A sort of random brainstorm… 1. The weather - I absolutely can’t stand the cold 2. The excitement - the only really ‘happening’ places in Canada are Toronto and Vancouver 3. The money - I’ll make about twice as much working in America 4. The possibility for change - I hope to become a lawyer. And instead of stamping around in anger (Sorry elfbabe: BTW, I LOVE your name) I’d like to effect some change… Quick and dirty. I’m not sure how much of the above is really true… but its what comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004/52 "2003-04-30T02:45:47Z")
I don’t think it’s so outrageous to call what Santorum said homophobic. He picked his words, but he compared it to bestiality and pedophilia. Come on, you know? However, I agree that the idea that it’s good news that most people think it should be legal even if they don’t like it. I wish we saw more of that around here. _Perhaps_ it’s a bit distressing that we’re even debating the legality of an entire lifestyle, but at least the results aren’t so bad. Is America less tolerant than Canada? Wouldn’t surprise me; Americans can get kinda out there religiously. But I’d have to see stats, I don’t think a lot of cultures/nations are as tolerant as they should be. ---
**Author:** ![bo989](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@bo989](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bo989)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004/53 "2003-04-30T02:48:35Z")
Marley: On the previous page specific polls were cited. Check 'em out. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004/54 "2003-04-30T02:54:05Z")
Upon further review: I wouldn’t necessarily worry about America. This is very obvious, but it’s a MIGHTY big and diverse place. There are places where I can see a gay guy having trouble, especially an openly gay guy, but in other places you’d have no problem. Depends on where you move. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004/55 "2003-04-30T02:55:44Z")
Ah, shoot. I’ll go back and read that. Thanks, bo. ---
**Author:** ![bo989](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@bo989](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bo989)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004/56 "2003-04-30T02:56:23Z")
Marley. Your point is well taken, but we’ve already talked about the geographic diversity issue. It doesn’t matter if the town one lives in happens to be more inclusive or tolerant. The ‘pulse of the nation’ also makes quite a difference in ones standard of living. ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004/57 "2003-04-30T02:58:11Z")
**bo989** : > [@](#): > > I appreciate your stance, and I can understand how some people might think that people fighting for their own rights and equality are at the same time being intolerant of others. Huh? I said nothing about people fighting for equal rights. I merely said that those who condemn others for their point of view on morality are at least as intolerant as they claim the others to be. If you want to turn this into a debate on equal rights we can, but that has been done to death on this and many other boards. > [@](#): > > As far as I am concerned, if someone hates homosexual acts, they also hate me. At that point, the problem ceases to be one of the intolerance/hatred of others and becomes one of your inability to recognize and respond to others views. I find a number of actions to be immoral and deplore that they happen. I do not, however, hate those people who commit those acts nor would I, based on my own sense of morality, wish to legislate against them. These are two separate and distinct spheres of action. > [@](#): > > Perhaps now you can see how, even though this hate is part of many people’s religious views, I would be hurt by it and take offense, and how I should most certainly not tolerate this hate. I do not find it “legitimate” in any way. Again, this is because _you_ are confusing the aversion to the behavior with hatred of the individual. This is not the case with the vast majority of people who find this behavior to be immoral. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, whether hatred of homosexuals is a basic tenet of Christianity is a topic for debate, as can be seen by the many prior threads discussing the issue. It is not hatred of homosexuals, or even the holding of homosexuality as immoral (which I again assert are two separate ideas), that I am claiming is a tenet of Christianity. I was referring to the “love the sinner/hate the sin” quote as being fundamental to Xianity. There is a huge difference there. **Mr. Excellent** , I also mean this to be an answer to your post. I do not think I am wandering very far into “untenable territory” with this comment. **Polycarp** : > [@](#): > > Many of us Christians believe that we ourselves are sinners, saved by the grace of God, and that we have no business sitting in judgment of the morality of others. This is exactly why we should love the sinner. But I do not think Scripture anywhere tells us to condone sinning. > [@](#): > > Scripture confirms this in the “Judge not, lest you be judged. For with the measure with which you judge, you will be judged” – which is echoed in the Lord’s Prayer, no less! By this I assume you are referring to the line “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us?” If so, I would think that one must first recognize the trespass (or sin) before we can forgive the trespasser – which would certainly involve judgment! > [@](#): > > While there is some ground for making judgements[sic] on the relative value of the attitudes, thoughts, and deeds of others, and Scriptural support for this, it’s quite clear from the latter that such judging is to not be of persons but of behavior and to be done in love Which is exactly why I said that the “love the sinner/hate the sin” paradigm is a basic tenet of Christianity. Thank you for explaining it in a much more eloquent way than I did. * * * All of that said, I admit that my first post may not have made the point perfectly clear and so I would like to re-iterate it: I hold that the idea of loving the sinner while hating the sin is a basic tenet of Christianity. While I would argue that condemning homosexual activity could very legitimately be considered a Christian belief (based on the words of the Bible) I did not argue that in my first post and am not positing that in any way in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![bo989](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@bo989](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bo989)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004/58 "2003-04-30T03:00:25Z")
akennett, your post deserves a response, but I’m too sad/angry/frustrated to offer one right now. Could someone else please field this one for the time being… I’ll see if I can muster up the will-power in the meantime. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004/59 "2003-04-30T03:03:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bo989 \* > \*\*With regards to your numbers… if one was to simply take them at face value they still don’t say much. 16 murders… that sounds low. But I’m not particularly concerned with getting murdered. I am concerned with verbal and physical abuse though. Do you have numbers for that? \*\* They weren’t my numbers they were the numbers from the cite MrVisible provided. As to the physical abuse we have about 2500 assaults in 2000. I don’t know how we can get accurate numbers on verbal abuse. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004/60 "2003-04-30T03:11:20Z")
Akennett, sounds like others will respond more in depth, but I’m gonna go way out on a limb and say that deciding homosexuality is a sin in the first place is intolerant. As Diogenes said, why is deciding homosexuality is wrong any less offensive than deciding being black is wrong? I disagree that the degree of intolerance shown by White and Santorum is on par with bo, Diogenes or myself (among others). Santorum is arguing that an act done by two consenting adults in their own home, which is harming no one, should be illegal. That’s more intolerant than me saying “that attitude is moronic.” A comparable level of intolerance would be if I started a push to ban Santorum and others from verbally disapproving of homosexuality, which nobody is doing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-really-this-homophobic/172004.md?page=4)