# Is America the greatest country on Earth, and why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836 "2012-06-30T19:01:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836/41 "2012-06-30T22:47:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Has America been considered the “leader of the free world” anywhere but in its collective fantasies? Sure. Though not, I think, now. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836/42 "2012-06-30T22:49:11Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I agree with part of this and disagree with part of it. It’s not cool to throw your service in other peoples faces as sort of a fiat attempt at gaining the high moral ground…and, it’s especially annoying in these sorts of threads as it both fulfills the stereotype expectations of some and is obviously a lure to try and get others to have their heads explode (not going to name any names). However, simply because the average US serviceman hasn’t fought in some desperate battle against and existential threat to freedom and the American way is pretty meaningless too. Their service and the might of the US military is pretty much what protects that freedom. True, but people who fought in WWII _are_ allowed to throw it in peoples’ faces. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836/43 "2012-06-30T22:57:57Z")
If I’d been in the Jeff Daniels character’s shoes, I would have begun, in an extremely angry and loud and exasperated tone, with, “No, no, no! All those responses are meaningless! Which is fitting, because the question is meaningless! **You,** young lady [points finger and glares fiercely], need to define your terms much more specifically! What exactly do you mean by a “great” country? By what criteria? Wealth? Power? Education? Social mobility? Economic equality? Personal liberty? Being a good place to live? Being a good country for **other** countries to have in the world with them? What?!” ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836/44 "2012-06-30T23:04:36Z")
> [@Not\_From\_Here](#): > > As a brazilian i have to ask: > Why do americans worry about being the greatest? > Why do americans feel that they have to be better than the rest of the world? > I want my country to become a better one, but i don’t want it to be better than others.I want to live in a world where all countries enjoy the same level of development,freedom,etc. No idea. I don’t know the history of the attitude, I would assume it started after WW1 or maybe WW2 when we emerged as a superpower. But I have no idea why that is so popular. But nations like Germany, Japan, China, etc. also have attitudes like that. FWIW, it isn’t something a lot of informed Americans subscribe to or care about. We do good things and bad things. Our tertiary education is probably the worlds best (although in part that could be due to how much larger our population is vs other OECD nations). And we lag behind in other areas. I think it is just a feel good platitude spouted by PC politicians for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836/45 "2012-06-30T23:06:04Z")
> [@XT](#): > > 😛 Getting your panties in a twist because this OP has been asked and answered in various different ways in dozens of threads? Actually, I misread your post (literally- I misread a couple of words) that made it seem extremely insulting. Re-reading it, correctly, it’s not personally insulting. My error, and I apologize. (And if you’d read it the way I did, you’d have been angry too.) That said, save some emoticons for the Third World, for God’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836/46 "2012-06-30T23:08:51Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] Actually, I misread your post (literally- I misread a couple of words) that made it seem extremely insulting. My error, and I apologize. (And if you’d read it the way I did, you’d have been angry too.) [/QUOTE] No worries…it wasn’t actually supposed to be insulting, but I tend to snark more when I’m posting on the run on my iPad. > [@](#): > > That said, save some emoticons for the Third World, for God’s sake. Sorry…I’m in a 12 step program, but I keep falling off the wagon… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Not\_From\_Here](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/2acd7d/32.png) [@Not\_From\_Here](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_From_Here)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836/47 "2012-06-30T23:27:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > … Being a good country for **other** countries to have in the world with them? What?!" This one is really important.If your country is a great place to live but acts in a terrible way with the rest of the world can you really consider it to be the greatest country on Earth? ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836/48 "2012-07-01T00:04:14Z")
We are the greatest country in the world in terms of military power, and GNP. There, now there is something indisputable. We are also the greatest country in the world in terms of corn production. There may be a few other things I missed in terms of winning the -est contest. As for this “freedom” of which some have spoken, boy that’s a mystery to me what the hell they are really talking about. Freedom as “absence of slavery”, okay . . . but not a lot of grounds for bragging there, historically. Freedom as “lots of choices available”, that’s a dubious or at least ambiguous claim and to be honest, I don’t know that it’s as special a gift as it’s made out to be. Most people would rather breath clean air and drink safe water, be reasonably fed, housed, and have easy access to education and health care than enjoy the freedom to starve, die of curable/preventable disease, scrabble out a meager living through never-ending toil, sleep under a bridge, or be shot by someone who wants your car. Even if freedom is really really noble. And no, I don’t think this is a false dichotomy. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836/49 "2012-07-01T00:36:38Z")
If you asked a random sample of people in the 3rd world what country they would prefer to move to if they could and were so inclined, I’d be surprised if the USA wasn’t at the top of the list. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836/50 "2012-07-01T00:51:28Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Never forget that the reason people like you aren’t put against the nearest wall is because guys like me have served this nation and kept us free. You don’t believe it, you don’t appreciate it, and you’ve done nothing to earn it, but you’re welcome, anyway. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And if the government so ordered I’m quite sure you and your fellow veterans would have cheerfully lined me up against a wall and killed me. In the midst of a not very great debate, this is the silliest exchange I have seen here. This thread has no need of chest thumping or self-flagellation and it certainly does not need dumb personal shots. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836/51 "2012-07-01T01:00:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If you asked a random sample of people in the 3rd world what country they would prefer to move to if they could and were so inclined, I’d be surprised if the USA wasn’t at the top of the list. Well, yeah, but that’s probably not the best measure. What do people in the Third World who haven’t actually been here know? I lived in a First World country and I wasn’t particularly excited about moving here. If I’d been sent to Cleveland or something, I might not have stayed. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836/52 "2012-07-01T01:07:01Z")
Even as a Canadian, I used to agree - the US _was_ the greatest country on Earth. Then, around the turn of the millennium, the US changed and so did my sentiment. Now, admittedly rather belated, I think that Canada is the ‘greatest’ country. What has changed? Mostly, I think it’s been the sharp segmentation of US society. Not just the ‘haves’ versus the ‘have nots’, but those with essentially no chance to improve their lot versus those who have the money, connections, family, the social supports, etc., to aim for (and often achieve) their dream. Those who seemingly take pride in their ignorance (i.e. many of the creationists, the ‘faggots should burn Hell’ types, the Christian fundamentalists, etc.) versus those who understand that informed debate is not something to be shouted down but something to be treasured. Those who favour softening the Bill of Rights and what it stood for versus those who still believe that it is not only sacrosanct, but is the _sine qua non_ of what America must be. The US has been shattered by special interest groups which, by and large, care only for themselves and those who share their views and values. Many in the US have, tragically and paradoxically, become intolerant. They actively oppose those traits that made America what it was - a beacon, an ideal, a sanctuary. It has become a contemporary truism that the US Congress operates only along party lines now; the good of the country, and the good of the people, be damned. In other words, the social fragmentation now extends to the institutions which should be protecting and caring for its citizens. On the other hand, despite many superficial changes since I was a younger man, and despite some vocal bigots, Canadians still welcomes debate and diversity. Discussion and consensus are still the rule, as imperfect as they are when so many people have so many strong beliefs. Canadians, while not head-in-the-sky idealists, have compassion - people aren’t allowed to suffer, or go bankrupt, through no fault of their own. Yet, Canadians are realists - our troops went to Afghanistan (and took the highest number of casualties on a pro-rated basis); we have our version of the FBI and the CIA and, especially post 9/11 they, too, have grown more tentacles to squeeze freedom and democracy tighter than ever; we, too, have crime, poverty, injustice to our native population, etc., etc. But, at the end of the day, most of us still feel safe, none of us live in dread of the financial consequences of a catastrophic illness, most kids who want to can get some form of higher education, and, most importantly, vis a vis the US, the many divisions we have are no more than small ruts and not the vast chasms which separate the various players in the US; players who deliberately dig their moats deeper, separating themselves from not just from those who hold different beliefs, but from new ideas and new voices. Alas, it seems self-perpetuating. The truth is that no matter how loud and hard Americans beat their chests and proclaim that they’re ‘number one’, they aren’t any longer. To regain their supremacy - moral, economic, and otherwise - Americans must re-embrace tolerance; something that seems to be vanishing from the land of the free and the home of the brave. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836/53 "2012-07-01T01:08:49Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This thread has no need of chest thumping or self-flagellation and it certainly does not need dumb personal shots. > > Knock it off. > > [/Moderating] My apologies, that was less general and more personal than I should have gotten. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836/54 "2012-07-01T01:14:15Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, yeah, but that’s probably not the best measure. What do people in the Third World who haven’t actually been here know? I lived in a First World country and I wasn’t particularly excited about moving here. If I’d been sent to Cleveland or something, I might not have stayed. I didn’t say it was the best measure. I offered other measures in earlier posts. It’s a measure. One measure of greatness is the subjective reputation a country has, and this is a good measure of that. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836/55 "2012-07-01T01:55:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I didn’t say it was the best measure. I offered other measures in earlier posts. It’s a measure. One measure of greatness is the subjective reputation a country has, and this is a good measure of that. Sort of like colleges? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836/56 "2012-07-01T02:10:14Z")
> [@Not\_From\_Here](#): > > As a brazilian i have to ask: > Why do americans worry about being the greatest? > Why do americans feel that they have to be better than the rest of the world? > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > No idea. I don’t know the history of the attitude, I would assume it started after WW1 or maybe WW2 when we emerged as a superpower. No, much older than that. It’s called [American exceptionalism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism) and it’s almost as old as the country. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836/57 "2012-07-01T02:23:50Z")
For those not wishing (or unable) to view the link, [Piers Morgan in The Daily Mail](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-2166094/Piers-Morgan-Jeff-Daniels-rants-America-NOT-worlds-greatest-nation-fact-alien-Americans.html) had this to say, in part quoting Sorkin: The trigger for this comes during a tedious college panel debate, when the moderator goads him into answering the question ‘What makes America the greatest country in the world?’ McEvoy pauses for a few seconds, then goes on an almighty (factually accurate, statistically) rant about why America is NOT the world’s greatest country, a concept that would be horrifyingly alien to 99.99 per cent of Americans I know: ‘We’re seventh in literacy, 27th in maths, 22nd in science, 49th in life expectancy, 178th in infant mortality, third in median household income, fourth in labour force and fourth in exports. We lead the world in only three categories – number of incarcerated citizens per capita, number of adults who believe angels are real, and defence spending, where we spend more than the next 26 countries combined… So when you ask what makes us the greatest country in the world, I don’t know what the f\*\*\* you’re talking about.’ ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836/58 "2012-07-01T02:38:47Z")
dup ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836/59 "2012-07-01T02:40:10Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > \*\*Moderating \*\* > In the midst of a not very great debate I don’t suppose it would do any good to make a complaint to the Mods about the completely unnecessary snark in that comment made while moderating, would it? ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836/60 "2012-07-01T02:43:39Z")
[QUOTE=KarlGauss] The US has been shattered by special interest groups which, by and large, care only for themselves and those who share their views and values. Many in the US have, tragically and paradoxically, become intolerant. They actively oppose those traits that made America what it was - a beacon, an ideal, a sanctuary. It has become a contemporary truism that the US Congress operates only along party lines now; the good of the country, and the good of the people, be damned. In other words, the social fragmentation now extends to the institutions which should be protecting and caring for its citizens. […] The truth is that no matter how loud and hard Americans beat their chests and proclaim that they’re ‘number one’, they aren’t any longer. To regain their supremacy - moral, economic, and otherwise - Americans must re-embrace tolerance; something that seems to be vanishing from the land of the free and the home of the brave. [/QUOTE] Thank you so very much **Karl**. We no longer care about being the greatest country in the world in any way but wealth, dominance, and power. And those are people with some global view - many of us care only about being the dominant group in the country, because to them the country _is_ the world. If we don’t change our ways somehow, we will be brought low, and everything we fought for squandered. The great joke will be that those responsible will be parroting our high ideals to the end and see nothing amiss. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-the-greatest-country-on-earth-and-why/626836.md?page=4)