# Is America to Afraid to Racial Profile **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-to-afraid-to-racial-profile/582817 "2011-05-22T21:36:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-to-afraid-to-racial-profile/582817/41 "2011-05-23T01:08:15Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Darn, I wonder what Admiral Akbar would call this. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Huh, > > The US Navy believes in racial profiling, therefore there are no Muslm Admirals in the US Navy. Actually, no; he was a naval consultant for the Star Wars program. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-to-afraid-to-racial-profile/582817/42 "2011-05-23T01:14:00Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Huh, > > The US Navy believes in racial profiling, therefore there are no Muslm Admirals in the US Navy. He doesnt like to be called Muslim, he prefers _calamari_. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-to-afraid-to-racial-profile/582817/43 "2011-05-23T01:24:00Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I grew up in Newport RI and knew a few people in bombed with the SEALS. > > Perhaps the Chief could help me with something that slipped my mind during a recent conversation. > > What is the nickname SEALS use for every CMDC. > > I remember it being a cool nickname, but I can’t remember what it was. > > Beyond that, I’m surprised he’s advocating it since the US military objects strongly to using it. > [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Darn, I wonder what Admiral Akbar would call this. Well, if a CMDC is a mid-level governor, he might say: “It’s satrap!” ---
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-to-afraid-to-racial-profile/582817/44 "2011-05-23T01:44:42Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > [British National Party - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party#Claims_of_repression_of_free_speech) > > Yes, the BNP are a bunch of quasi-Nazis/racists but they aren’t a terrorist organization and shouldn’t be subject to such persecution. Okaaaaaay. That’s not a cite for what you claimed. The British National Party is a _political party_. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > fundamentalist Christians might get targeted depending on whose in the Oval Office (as in Europe). So, got any other cite you’d like to use? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-to-afraid-to-racial-profile/582817/45 "2011-05-23T02:11:24Z")
> [@chiefwhitesr](#): > > Although recently ruled on as unconstitutional the thought of racial profiling seems appropriate to me as an Officer of Independent Intelligence. As a Security Officer I am bound to follow every lead based on what I know, not based on what the limitations of a Judge says. If racial profiling is unconstitutional I’ll kiss some serious butt, but I don’t in my heart of hearts believe it is. There is a lot more to profiling than race but starting with known race or associates of a member who is a terrorist’s race is common sense. Before this thing runs completely off the rails, (although I am enjoying the humor and it would be fun to move it to a joke forum and see what develops), I guess I ought to make one effort at a serious response. The Supreme Court has never issued a ruling that would suggest that legitimate information about a suspect of criminal activity be ignored or suppressed based on the person’s perceived race, ethnicity, or religion, so there is no reason to ignore “leads” that happen to include that information. A prohibition against racial (or religious) profiling does not mean that no information can ever be used, so we can dismiss that straw man argument as nonsense. Racial (or religious) profiling does not mean including relevant information about suspected criminals that happens to include the perceived race or belief. Rather, racial profiling means that we focus on perceived race or religion to the exclusion of legitimate facts. That is what the phrase means. Racial profiling includes things such as pulling over drivers for Driving While Black, harrassing innocent citizens for the color of their skin. As has already been alluded, racial profiling for people of Middle Eastern ethnicity would never have caught Richard Reid or Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, neither of whom were of Middle Eastern ethnicity. Used in airports, racial or religious profiling would mean that we would harrass every person of apparently Middle Eastern extraction, (including the Lebanese Maronite Christians, the Egyptian Coptic Christians, and a host of others), while failing to stop any actual terrorists who happened to be able to pass as Italian or Greek, (or German). Genuine profiling involves looking at behavior, not skin color, and is rather more effective. So the claims of the OP–starting with a nonsense claim regarding the opinions of the Supreme Court and continuing through the imagined usefulness of race-based stereotypes–are merely silly posturing that have nothing to do with the real world. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-to-afraid-to-racial-profile/582817/46 "2011-05-23T03:12:20Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So the claims of the OP–starting with a nonsense claim regarding the opinions of the Supreme Court and continuing through the imagined usefulness of race-based stereotypes–are merely silly posturing that have nothing to do with the real world. If he is who he claims he is, it seems that perhaps he lacks the appropriate training for his current duties. If he is truly interested in keeping this country safe, it would behoove him to get it. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-to-afraid-to-racial-profile/582817/47 "2011-05-23T03:23:30Z")
New York City is one of the safest cities in the United States. [http://www.morganquitno.com/cit07pop.htm](http://www.morganquitno.com/cit07pop.htm) > **[New York Crime Rates and Statistics - NeighborhoodScout](https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ny/new-york/crime)** > > Most accurate 2021 crime rates for New York, NY. Your chance of being a victim of violent crime in New York is 1 in 192 and property crime is 1 in 51. Compare New York crime data to other cities, states, and neighborhoods in the U.S. on... Race profiling is widely considered to be one of the major reasons. The police scrutinize young black and Hispanic men very closely. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-to-afraid-to-racial-profile/582817/48 "2011-05-23T03:42:25Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Race profiling is widely considered to be one of the major reasons. The police scrutinize young black and Hispanic men very closely. In other words, they search tens of thousands of people because they have brown skin, only a tiny number of which turn out to have anything incriminating on them. They create a climate of fear and hatred between the cops and anyone who isn’t white. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-to-afraid-to-racial-profile/582817/49 "2011-05-23T03:44:03Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Race profiling is widely considered to be one of the major reasons. The police scrutinize young black and Hispanic men very closely. Making such a statement shows either extreme ignorance or intellectual dishonesty. William Bratton, the Police commissioner who put in place the policies that caused New York’s crime rate to drop has criticized racial profiling. I can’t help but notice you seem to be obsessed with black people, having on several occasions made rather lame attempts to prove black people were less intelligent or more violent than whites. I have to ask, what happened to you to cause you to become so obsessed with black people? Did a woman you loved dump you for a black man? Did get beaten up by a black person at one time? Did your mother abandon you and your father for a black man? I don’t know what happened, but it must have been something extreme. What was it? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-to-afraid-to-racial-profile/582817/50 "2011-05-23T13:44:50Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I have to ask, what happened to you to cause you to become so obsessed with black people? > > Did a woman you loved dump you for a black man? > > Did get beaten up by a black person at one time? > > Did your mother abandon you and your father for a black man? > > I don’t know what happened, but it must have been something extreme. > > What was it? Regardless of the reasons for the poster’s odd beliefs, these questions–particularly as worded–are irrelevant to this discussion and inappropriate to this forum. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-to-afraid-to-racial-profile/582817/51 "2011-05-23T13:56:04Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Race profiling is widely considered to be one of the major reasons. The police scrutinize young black and Hispanic men very closely. The facts indicate the exact opposite: [Salon.com: Why Racial profiling doesn’t work](http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2005/08/22/racial_profiling/index.html) > [@](#): > > Harris points to a study of New York’s “stop and frisk” campaign in the late 1990s, when police were stopping people in the streets on a regular basis in an effort to confiscate illegal weapons and reduce crime. The campaign created tension between the police and minority communities, who thought they were being unfairly targeted for frisks. It turned out they were right. > > . . . New York attorney general Eliot Spitzer ordered a study of 175,000 “stop and frisk” records and found that although African-Americans composed only 25 percent of New York City’s population at the time, they made up 50 percent of the people who were stopped. Latinos were roughly 23 percent of the population and 33 percent of those stopped, while whites were 43 percent of the population and 13 percent of those stopped. > > Those findings interested Harris less than what the statistics indicated about the results: Police were going to a lot of trouble for little reward, especially when the people they stopped were African-Americans. > > Harris looked at what he called “hit rates” – the percentage of stops in which the police found drugs, a gun or something else that led to an arrest – and noted that the number of hits in general was very low for the number of stops that police made. But more interesting was that the rate for African-Americans was much lower than the rate for Caucasians. Police had a hit rate of 12.6 percent when they stopped Caucasians and only 10.5 percent when they stopped African-Americans. The hit rate for Latinos was 11.5 percent. > > “You might say that we have a difference of 2.1 percent between blacks and whites. But it’s actually a difference of 20 percent when you do the math right,” Harris says. And “the difference between whites and Latinos is about 10 percent.” > > Essentially, police were stopping more African-Americans than Caucasians but finding fewer criminals among the former. Why? Not because blacks commit proportionately fewer crimes than whites do (the data vary according to the type of crime and other factors) but because police were looking at the wrong factors when they stopped people, Harris says. > > “They’re focusing on appearance when they should be focusing on behavior,” he says. “When they’re not distracted by race, they’re actually doing a more accurate job” of picking out the right people. New York is safer because they dropped the racial profiling and began to use the more effective behavior profiling. ---
**Author:** ![chiefwhitesr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@chiefwhitesr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiefwhitesr)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-to-afraid-to-racial-profile/582817/52 "2011-05-25T22:13:17Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > You mean you just discovered wikipedia, and its Sharia page, and you’re supposed to be a retired SEAL, with 15 years of work in intelligence? > > Christ. > > ( [Jesus - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ) ) It doesn’t really matter who I am or what I have done in the past. I don’t have to prove myself to you. My logic is really quite simple in form. Because I am a former SEAL and have worked in the private sector for 15 years I take for granted that some people still need a valid link for the term “Sharia” Most apologetic, Chief White Sr. ---
**Author:** ![chiefwhitesr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@chiefwhitesr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiefwhitesr)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-to-afraid-to-racial-profile/582817/53 "2011-05-25T22:23:24Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The facts indicate the exact opposite: > [Salon.com: Why Racial profiling doesn’t work](http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2005/08/22/racial_profiling/index.html)New York is safer because they dropped the racial profiling and began to use the more effective behavior profiling. When racially profiling other key data must be observed. ie: police intelligence and good old fashioned hard nosed question asking. When I observe data I observe it freely and with objective, that is not to mean bias. Simply by the color of one’s skin does not hold water… Maybe my choice of using the term racial profiling was indeed a mistake from the beginning of the point if you can’t get what I am stating as a matter of experience in investigative technologies. If so, I deeply apologize for the misuse of the term. One thing about America is certain. Once there has been a definition laid down and become acceptance in the mainstream it becomes difficult to change peoples perspective because they depend so desperately on those definitions for their arguments survival and we all love to debate. Well I should say some of us love to debate. Some of us have a real difficult time controlling ourselves and to the effect of what comes spewing out of our hole in our head located just below the nose.:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-to-afraid-to-racial-profile/582817/54 "2011-05-26T01:20:02Z")
The whole point of the objections to your Original Post is that you claimed that the Supreme Court had ruled racial profiling unconstitutional, but that it was necessary to good police and security work. Now you note that you were not talking about racial profiling, _per se_, but something more along the lines of behavioral profiling. The Supreme Court has never ruled against behavioral profiling and I suspect that most of the posters in this thread would be comfortable with security forces engaging in profiling based on the actions of a person. “Racial” profiling, however, remains a stupid thing to do, as it is ineffective and counter-productive to both security and good order. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-to-afraid-to-racial-profile/582817/55 "2011-05-26T02:15:16Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The whole point of the objections to your Original Post is that you claimed that the Supreme Court had ruled racial profiling unconstitutional, but that it was necessary to good police and security work. > Now you note that you were not talking about racial profiling, _per se_, but something more along the lines of behavioral profiling. The Supreme Court has never ruled against behavioral profiling and I suspect that most of the posters in this thread would be comfortable with security forces engaging in profiling based on the actions of a person. > > “Racial” profiling, however, remains a stupid thing to do, as it is ineffective and counter-productive to both security and good order. Exactly. Even ignoring the moral problems, racial profiling fails in its alleged purpose by not narrowing the investigative targets anywhere near enough to be useful, and by using a really bad criteria for profiling to boot. Profiling only makes sense if the profile narrows your prospective targets down to manageable numbers that let you concentrate your resources, and (to use the NY example) 175,000 people isn’t manageable. Especially where there’s no great correlation between actual criminality and the criteria you are using. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-to-afraid-to-racial-profile/582817/56 "2011-05-26T10:09:45Z")
> [@Ichbin\_Dubist](#): > > As a first step, they should send someone down to Wall Street and start questioning random rich white guys, I’ve noticed that they are the type to commit the worst financial crimes. Are you suggesting that in the cases of large-scale fraud, they _don’t_, in fact, look at the Wall Streeter “rich white” types, and instead look first at the “poor black” people? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-to-afraid-to-racial-profile/582817/57 "2011-05-26T13:03:03Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Are you suggesting that in the cases of large-scale fraud, they _don’t_, in fact, look at the Wall Streeter “rich white” types, and instead look first at the “poor black” people? No. The (ironic) point was that in cases of large-scale fraud, they do not resort to profiling; they simply follow the evidence of a crime to its source. (Hence “random rich white guys” in the post you quoted.) It is only when the targets are going to be politically less well supported, (ethnic minorities), where there is a sudden call for racial profiling to stop crime, (even though that sort of profiling is ineffective and counter-productive). ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-to-afraid-to-racial-profile/582817/58 "2011-05-26T13:15:22Z")
Is it really likely that a former US SEAL doesn’t speak English as a first language? I’m surprised. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-to-afraid-to-racial-profile/582817/59 "2011-05-26T16:36:52Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > Is it really likely that a former US SEAL doesn’t speak English as a first language? I’m surprised. If you have a problem with a poster, take it to The BBQ Pit. Do not hijack threads with attacks on posters. [/Moderating] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-america-to-afraid-to-racial-profile/582817.md?page=2)