# Is American Indian culture seen through rose colored glasses? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 22, 2004, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-indian-culture-seen-through-rose-colored-glasses/265467 "2004-09-22T13:03:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-indian-culture-seen-through-rose-colored-glasses/265467/21 "2004-09-23T22:17:29Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > This is only anecdotal, but this is the transcript of a real conversation I had with a 9 year old kid: > > 9yo: Native American culture was perfect until white people came. > Me: The phrase “perfect culture” is an oxymoron. (brief explanation of oxymoron ensues). They had wars, took slaves, and made mistakes just like everyone else. > 9yo: Nope, you’re wrong. They lived in harmony with nature and they were peaceful and one with the earth. > Me: Which nation are you talking about? There were as many tribes of Native Americans as there are countries in Europe, if not more. > 9yo: America is messed up. We should live like the Native Americans. > Me: Where are you getting this from? > 9yo: From school. And my stepfather. His great grandfather was an Indian. > > This is just one example of a phenomenon I’ve seen in schools for a while. > Nothing I could say could persuade this kid that there is no such thing as a “perfect culture,” or even such a thing as “Native American culture” as some sort of singularity that could be summed up as a whole. It really bugs me when people fail to realize that each nation is a separate entity with a discrete identity, with some overlap (again, a comparison to Europe could be made). > > There has been a trend to idolize indigenous cultures in order to counteract the horrible crimes committed against them in life and the history books. I think some overcompensation is definitely happening. It’s not the worst thing that’s ever happened, but I think the best service one can do to any culture is see it for what it is. JMO. 2 points: 1. Grammar schools have always idolized and oversimplified history - it was just with a different bias when we were kids. 2. I shake my head at how you tried to deal with a nine-year-old. Be happy he was interested in something academic. There’s plenty of time to be disillusioned later on. ---
**Author:** ![tisiphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tisiphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tisiphone)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-indian-culture-seen-through-rose-colored-glasses/265467/22 "2004-09-23T23:25:21Z")
> [@neuroman](#): > > Maybe, but think carbon dating should be able to clear up any ambiguities. Yep. Wish one had occurred recently enough to do that. The stories are all at least thirty years old. 🙂 I’ve tried to track down some of these stories, honest. There’s been at least one story (about a frozen mastodon/mammoth) that came with a name, but the guy had been dead for about ten years when I heard it, and relatives were unable to provide evidence. Or provide enough clues for anyone to go find out. (synopsis: found frozen mastodon/mammoth, ate some and fed the rest to his dogs. A fine, fat, healthy winter for all, apparently. ) Perhaps “rarely” would have been a better word choice than “occasionally”. I’m perfectly willing to accept that these are Rural Legends (as opposed to Urban ones), but you know, just because it’s a legend doesn’t always mean there’s not a grain of truth in there somewhere… I’d prefer to be open-minded about it. Less offensive to the teller of tales, and less embarrassing when proven, one way or t’other. (Although I likely WOULD end up rudely laughing if someone claimed to see a T. Rex. And I’m pretty sure that Tagish Elvis is exceedingly unbalanced, as opposed to the alien-induced reincarnation of Elvis Presley. I’ll revise my opinion on THAT one after the aliens land and tell us so.) There’s an awful lot of country up here, and some of it rarely sees human presence. It is entirely plausible to me that a hunter/trapper could have happened on one of these things, recently thawed, and report it to the village as a fresh death - some of the reports I’ve read about the frozen mastodon/mammoth phenomenon remark on how well-preserved some were. Yeah, yeah, just because it’s plausible doesn’t make it true. I know. :checks forum: Yep. IMHO. Not GD. I am so allowed to have unsupported opinions in here. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-indian-culture-seen-through-rose-colored-glasses/265467/23 "2004-09-23T23:51:31Z")
Fascinating review of the new Museum of the American Indian from the [NY Times.](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/21/arts/design/21muse.html) Author Rothstein says that there’s some fantastic art and intriguing architecture, but basically it fails > [@](#): > > in so many constituencies that the museum often ends up filtering away detail rather than displaying it, and minimizing difference even while it claims to be discovering it. He basically says it engages in the same misty romanticism that the OP is concerned with, and does not full the function of a true anthropological museum: What did people want in life? How did they deal with the challenges? How did the rich and poor live (and if there was relative social equality, how was it achieved?) What was a typical day like for a man, a woman, a warrior, a farmer, a nomad? What was a “successful” life by Indian standards? Instead, as he notes about the Pueblo exhibit, > [@](#): > > The exhibit’s commentary is limited to comments like “Respect and sharing of your self is very important.” One does not learn what daily life is like or even what the tribe’s religious ceremonies consist of. Of course, if one of the rules of Fight Cl–uh, that particular religion is that you don’t blab its details on a wall seen by (ideally) four million people a year, then say **that!** > [@](#): > > In fact, there is an astonishing uniformity in the exhibits’ accounts of religious beliefs, which may have been homogenized by subtle forces within the museum itself. The building emphasizes a kind of warm, earthy mysticism with comforting homilies behind every facade, reviving an old pastoral romance about the Indian. > > But these were communities that at least at one time were vastly different, which farmed or hunted, engaged in war, suffered indignity, inspired outrage. Ayup. I’ll go to the Museum if I’m in DC, I guess, but looks like I’ll need to head to the library for anything deeper. **tisiphone** , thanks for the info! I have a question that’s a little OT–I’ve been to the Indian museums in NYC and Alburquerque but amongst the literature and songs there was one thing I found missing–love songs. I suppose that every tribe did things a bit differently but in general, given the small gene pool of many tribes, were marriages in the old days arranged for political or social or clan advantage, or were women just kidnapped from elsewhere, or were there sometimes genuine love matches? All I saw were love myths about beautiful girls and gods, which sounds pretty Greek 😃 but doesn’t help me much with everyday folks. ---
**Author:** ![AveDementia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@AveDementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AveDementia)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-indian-culture-seen-through-rose-colored-glasses/265467/24 "2004-09-24T02:57:11Z")
I’m surprised no one has mentioned Disney yet. I haven’t seen Lilo and Stitch, but I remember there were complaints about the way the Native Hawaiians (Lilo and her family) were portrayed. Considering their reputation, I’m sure there are other examples. Sorry I can’t search out the actual posts, but as my toolbar has just dissapeared, and a minimized screen dropped into a void somewhere at the bottom of my screen (I was testing), I’m just kind of WTF right now. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-indian-culture-seen-through-rose-colored-glasses/265467/25 "2004-09-24T04:45:19Z")
There’s been a big dispute about what caused the megafauna die-off in the Americas. The evidence, while not conclusive, indicates it happened around the same time as the first humans entered the Americas. Which would tend to support the theory that the reason all those species went extinct is because people ate them. I also remember reading once that one of the reasons the Iroquois people were able to establish a prosperous and peaceful nation was because they had conquered a whole bunch of land from the surrounding tribes and either killed or evicted everyone else. The Cherokees saw which way the wind was blowing and figured they should assilimate as much white culture as they could. One of the cultural institutions which they embraced was slavery. ---
**Author:** ![tisiphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tisiphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tisiphone)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-indian-culture-seen-through-rose-colored-glasses/265467/26 "2004-09-24T18:38:08Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > **tisiphone** , thanks for the info! I have a question that’s a little OT–I’ve been to the Indian museums in NYC and Alburquerque but amongst the literature and songs there was one thing I found missing–love songs. I suppose that every tribe did things a bit differently but in general, given the small gene pool of many tribes, were marriages in the old days arranged for political or social or clan advantage, or were women just kidnapped from elsewhere, or were there sometimes genuine love matches? All I saw were love myths about beautiful girls and gods, which sounds pretty Greek 😃 but doesn’t help me much with everyday folks. Umm. Best I could probably do is talk about Tutchone customs. The rest I only know broad, sweeping generalizations about, such as marriages were arranged for all the reasons you listed above. Take me a bit, though. I actually gotta work today. There are Tutchone love songs, as well as some comic love songs - the Tutchone have one heckuva sense of humour. Although it does tend toward the exceedingly earthy. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-indian-culture-seen-through-rose-colored-glasses/265467/27 "2004-09-24T19:09:58Z")
Can’t believe this thread has got so far without anyone mentioning [the myth of the noble savage.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_savage) Basically Europeans liked to romanticise about the lifestyle of the peoples they were invading. Unfortunately there isn’t much real evidence to suggest that the peoples of Northern America were any nobler than the rest of the planet. They just hadn’t reached the stage of society and population size where they could screw up the environment to the same extent. Given the chance, and a few more hundred years they’d have got there themselves. At the end of the day all cultures are pretty much the same; all human with the same weaknesses. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-indian-culture-seen-through-rose-colored-glasses/265467/28 "2004-09-24T20:55:14Z")
> [@FlippyFly](#): > > With the opening of the new museum in Washington, I have heard a fair amount of discussion regarding the American Indian culture recently. There are common themes about how these people lived in harmony with nature and were spiritual as well as other things that I would view as great aspects of any society. > > I question whether or not this is a fair appraisal of the situation, or is it just nostalgia for simpler times. Was the early American Indian experience as great as it sounds, or has the true experience been changed and remembered more fondly than it actually was? Also, I am curious if the choices the Indians made regarding the environment were made due to a sense of stewardship, or if this was just the best way they knew. For example, I have often heard that when the Indians killed a buffalo, they always used every part of the animal and rarely killed more than one at a time. While this sounds great from an environmentalist aspect, another ‘motivation’ could be that maybe it was just too hard to kill more than one buffalo with their technology and the people were too poor to waste any of the dead animal. > > Any thoughts on this? Which Indian culture? The east coast and west coast Indians probably never was a buffalo in their entire lives. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-indian-culture-seen-through-rose-colored-glasses/265467/29 "2004-09-24T22:33:27Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > … > > There may have been some running around in the woods a couple hundred years ago–nobody can disprove for certain the existence of sasquatches & long-necked aquatic dinosaurs in Scotland, why not Oliphaunts in North America? Sorry, but that isn’t how it works. The burden of proof is on the people making such fantastical claims without a shred of objective evidence to prove that such things exist, not on everyone else to prove they don’t. or “The rodents of unusual size? I don’t believe they exist!” > [@](#): > > How many people have to see a critter before the rest of the world believes in it? How about several credible ones? Or one clear, unquestionable photograph? > [@](#): > > I’ve never seen a barracuda, but I believe in _them_. You’ve seen them on TV, surely? A Jaques Cousteau special perhaps? I know I have. ---
**Author:** ![tisiphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tisiphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tisiphone)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-indian-culture-seen-through-rose-colored-glasses/265467/30 "2004-09-24T23:20:29Z")
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, indeed. Isn’t that one of Randi’s maxims? Anyways, the newspaper cites on eating the mammoth stuff came from the following book [Strange Stories of Alaska and the Yukon](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0945397518/autonomypublishi/002-1202806-4121662#product-details), by Ed Ferrell. Can’t find my copy, I think Mom has it. Anyways, the book is filled with clippings on odd occurrences reported in local papers during and shortly after the Klondike Gold Rush. Most of it is the usual Lost Mines, Ghostly Appearances, and suchlike, but there’s a few, a very few, that come with enough detail to make me go “I wonder…”, such as the petrified forest supposedly near Dawson City. Just to put the finishing touches on any credibility whatsoever, a link to a recent [Yukon sasquatch](http://north.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=yuk-teslinbigfoot07062004) sighting. 😃 As I have not laid eyes on the alleged sasquatches yet myself, I’m not entirely buying it either. Not without good, clear photos, or DNA, or other inarguable evidence. Gotta say, though, Gus Jules has been Vouched For as not being another drunk with the DT’s, and he’s been in the bush long enough to know a bear from a buttcrack. Still not saying he saw a sasquatch, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-indian-culture-seen-through-rose-colored-glasses/265467.md?page=1)