# Is American society increasingly "post truth"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 25, 2016, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-society-increasingly-post-truth/769674 "2016-10-25T12:14:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-society-increasingly-post-truth/769674/1 "2016-10-25T12:14:52Z")
I’m not the only person who has the impression that recent incidences where facts have been blatantly disregarded has been pretty extreme - even by Washington standards. Last week **This American Life** was discussing whether our society was post truth/facts, offering such things as the flood of immigrants streaming across our southern border (demonstrably false). But wasn’t it about Nazi Germany that it was said, “Repeat a lie often enough…” I suspect that the spreading of clear falsehoods - and followers’ eagerness to accept them in the face of evidence to the contrary - has existed as long as humans. But I wonder if the phenomenon is in any way magnified (or reduced) by technology. It is increasingly easy to “factcheck” any statement or action. But if one only gets partisan reporting and commentary through social media, is such fact-checking irrelevant? Do you perceive that there has been a trend in one direction or another with respect to the relevance of demonstrable facts in American political discourse? If there has been, do you perceive it as good/bad/neutral? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-society-increasingly-post-truth/769674/2 "2016-10-25T12:25:11Z")
I don’t know if it’s a trend or not, but “Hands Up! Don’t Shoot!” and a lot of the other post-truth rhetoric of BLM and groups like that shows what the justification is, for those that accept it. The individual instance might not be right, but it highlights a more important truth. Maybe the Duke lacrosse team was framed by a crooked DA, but it highlights the rape culture we all live in. Michael Brown wasn’t really shot in the back, but it shows that police are racist murderers of black men. Etc. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-society-increasingly-post-truth/769674/3 "2016-10-25T12:33:40Z")
[Postmodernism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism)? > [@](#): > > While encompassing a broad range of ideas and projects, postmodernism is typically defined by an attitude of skepticism or distrust toward grand narratives, ideologies, and various tenets of Enlightenment rationality, **including the existence of objective reality and absolute truth** , as well as notions of rationality, human nature, and progress. Instead, it asserts that knowledge and truth are the product of unique systems of social, historical, and political discourse and interpretation, and are therefore contextual and constructed. [Truthiness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness)? > [@](#): > > Truthiness is a quality characterizing a “truth” that a person making an argument or assertion claims to know intuitively “from the gut” or because it “feels right” without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-society-increasingly-post-truth/769674/4 "2016-10-25T13:24:21Z")
As Bill Maher would say… I can’t prove it, but I know it’s true: The idea that we are more impervious to facts than in previous generations is a “post truth” belief. Immigrants have always been vilified. Minorities have always been treated poorly, based on prejudices (and it was much worse in the past). Partisans have always been eager to believe the worst about their political rivals (so-and-so had an illegitimate child :eek::eek::eek: ). ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-society-increasingly-post-truth/769674/5 "2016-10-25T13:40:12Z")
I agree with **Mace**. It’s the way people have always been. Perhaps it looks different now in the modern (mis)information age, but at the root people prefer comfortable thoughts over uncomfortable facts. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-society-increasingly-post-truth/769674/6 "2016-10-25T14:49:07Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > But wasn’t it about Nazi Germany that it was said, “Repeat a lie often enough…” The full text is: > [@Adolf Hitler](#): > > All this was inspired by the principle—which is quite true within itself—that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. Just wanted to post that for completeness. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > I wonder if the phenomenon is in any way magnified (or reduced) by technology. It is increasingly easy to “factcheck” any statement or action. But if one only gets partisan reporting and commentary through social media, is such fact-checking irrelevant? > > Do you perceive that there has been a trend in one direction or another with respect to the relevance of demonstrable facts in American political discourse? If there has been, do you perceive it as good/bad/neutral? Before the Internet, memes were passed around using photocopies and/or mail. Groups were addressed via church, meetings, and local radio. Before cable as we know it today, i.e., up until the late-'70s/early-'80s, people all across the country pretty much watched the same shows and received the same network news. Racists, isolationists, Conspiracy Theorists, fringe groups from the right and the left, etc., seemed (IMO) to be confined to ‘pockets’. With widespread cable and hundreds of channels, people’s viewing habits became more diversified. Niche markets developed (and some already existed on local radio) to cater or pander to what people wanted to hear. The Internet allowed these once-isolated nutters to communicate with other once-isolated nutters all across the world. By and large, people are lazy. We are also offended by things that disagree with our beliefs. 'Factcheck? Never! _This_ meme supports what I believe, therefore it must be correct! :mad: ’ I have friends who post horrid right-wing propaganda on Facebook. I have given them factual information, backed up with reputable citations, showing that they have been mislead. They say that the reputable citations (including government and educational sources) cannot be believed, and that obamaisakenyanmuslimterrorist-dot-com has the TRUE information. One friend posted a meme from a debunked story that happened in 2014, passing it off as current news. I provided him the facts. No response. But he posted the same story, with his outraged commentary, the next day – but with a different picture. This person is wilfully ignorant, or else intentionally lying. Wilful ignorance cannot be fought, but it can easily be spread with current technologies. . ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-society-increasingly-post-truth/769674/7 "2016-10-25T14:57:43Z")
I think we’re verging on “post reality.” ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-society-increasingly-post-truth/769674/8 "2016-10-25T15:25:10Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I agree with **Mace**. It’s the way people have always been. Perhaps it looks different now in the modern (mis)information age, but at the root people prefer comfortable thoughts over uncomfortable facts. I think its gradually gotten worse over the last few decades and the number of potential news sources proliferated. Back when there were just 3 television networks each with its nightly news, the target audience was the common denominator and so neglecting the truth in favor of a partisan lie would lose you a good portion of your audience. Now there are so many news sources, that each individual can seek out the source that gives him the “facts” he is most likely to agree with, and it is possible to make a business model based solely on these niche audiences. While this appears to suggest that we are entering a ne3ver before seen age of the big lie, it may in fact be that the relatively non-partisan nature of news that dominated the late 20th century may have been the anomaly, and we are just sliding back into the good old days of yellow journalism where each town had a Republican Newspaper and a Democratic Newspaper, and it was obvious which was which. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-society-increasingly-post-truth/769674/9 "2016-10-25T15:34:39Z")
Hollywood and certain fiction genres pushed a “Follow your _feelings_!” moral - \*“The heart is always right.” \*Elsewhere there has also been plenty of popular advice or Dear Abby-type stuff in the past decades about “Trust your intuition/go by your heart, not your head.” And then of course there were some philosophers with the viewpoint that truth is subjective, promoting solopsism, or other such stuff. So after decades of this “your feelings are always valid!” messaging, Oprah talk shows, and Hollywood culture and whatnot - oh, and also lots of 9/11 and Elvis and JFK and Moon landing conspiracy theories - it shouldn’t be surprising one bit if, when someone feels that refugees are rapists, or feels that vaccines cause autism, that that’s good enough for them. This [YouTube video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfO1veFs6Ho) - which most Dopers no doubt know of already - probably involves a certain amount of cherrypicking and confirmation bias, but shows University of Washington students being reluctant to tell a 5’9 white man that he \*isn’t \*a 6’5 Chinese woman. When society tells people that feelings trump facts, then, well, people will believe that feelings trump facts. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-society-increasingly-post-truth/769674/10 "2016-10-25T16:27:16Z")
This might be behind a paywall, but the Economist recently published with a cover that said “Art of the Lie”. Long but worth a read. The main article was [“Yes, I’d lie to you”](http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21706498-dishonesty-politics-nothing-new-manner-which-some-politicians-now-lie-and) - _Dishonesty in politics is nothing new; but the manner in which some politicians now lie, and the havoc they may wreak by doing so, are worrying._ ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-society-increasingly-post-truth/769674/11 "2016-10-25T16:33:41Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > While this appears to suggest that we are entering a ne3ver before seen age of the big lie, it may in fact be that the relatively non-partisan nature of news that dominated the late 20th century may have been the anomaly, and we are just sliding back into the good old days of yellow journalism where each town had a Republican Newspaper and a Democratic Newspaper, and it was obvious which was which. I definitely think this part is true. Objective journalism has rarely even been an ideal much less practiced. But even in the limited TV news era people still had gossip, the loud mouths anywhere people gathered to voice their problem about some group they didn’t like or the general government paranoia or the secret cabals that rule the world type thing. Anything that feels wrong is always someone else’s fault, right? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-society-increasingly-post-truth/769674/12 "2016-10-25T16:37:39Z")
It has been noted several times in recent weeks that when Al Smith ran for President, many people actually believed the story that Smith was building a tunnel from New York City to the Vatican so the Pope could run the USA. The breathtaking insanity of this claim tops anything Trump has said. That was 88 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-society-increasingly-post-truth/769674/13 "2016-10-25T16:50:46Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It has been noted several times in recent weeks that when Al Smith ran for President, many people actually believed the story that Smith was building a tunnel from New York City to the Vatican so the Pope could run the USA. The breathtaking insanity of this claim tops anything Trump has said. That was 88 years ago. Well, JFK had over thirty years to finish the job. So it’s not \*that \*crazy. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-society-increasingly-post-truth/769674/14 "2016-10-25T18:05:25Z")
[R.I.P., facts](http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-04-19/news/ct-talk-huppke-obit-facts-20120419_1_facts-philosopher-opinion) ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-society-increasingly-post-truth/769674/15 "2016-10-25T18:30:17Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > [R.I.P., facts](http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-04-19/news/ct-talk-huppke-obit-facts-20120419_1_facts-philosopher-opinion) Rex Huppke is a funny guy. Thanks for the thoughts, all. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-society-increasingly-post-truth/769674/16 "2016-10-25T18:39:57Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I think its gradually gotten worse over the last few decades and the number of potential news sources proliferated. Back when there were just 3 television networks each with its nightly news, the target audience was the common denominator and so neglecting the truth in favor of a partisan lie would lose you a good portion of your audience. Now there are so many news sources, that each individual can seek out the source that gives him the “facts” he is most likely to agree with, and it is possible to make a business model based solely on these niche audiences. There were plenty of sources of junk “news” back in those days. From radio to newspapers to popular magazines and tabloids. Plus, no one could go to Snopes or [FactCheck.org](http://FactCheck.org)! ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-society-increasingly-post-truth/769674/17 "2016-10-25T18:51:55Z")
I have become more sympathetic to lying politicians, in a way. Not in the sense of condoning their lying, but rather, in the sense that, the American electorate wouldn’t elect a politician who _didn’t_ lie. The electorate wants to have its cake and eat it, too. They want a politician who will tell truth, but if that truth is something they don’t want to hear, then that politician will lose. So the politicians have to lie in order to win. The blame lies with the voters. \* “Give us truth - but only if it’s truth that we like!”\* ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-society-increasingly-post-truth/769674/18 "2016-10-25T19:20:22Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I have become more sympathetic to lying politicians, in a way. Not in the sense of condoning their lying, but rather, in the sense that, the American electorate wouldn’t elect a politician who _didn’t_ lie. > > The electorate wants to have its cake and eat it, too. They want a politician who will tell truth, but if that truth is something they don’t want to hear, then that politician will lose. So the politicians have to lie in order to win. The blame lies with the voters. > \* > “Give us truth - but only if it’s truth that we like!”\* Politicians have always lied to get elected. What seems to have changed, is that being caught blatantly and obviously lying appears to no longer have significant consequences. In the past, politicians would lie about what they _would do_ in the future. As in the TV show _The Prisoner_: “my platform is: less work, and more play!” (or in our terms, “I’ll lower taxes … and increase services!”). We may suspect it is a lie, but we can only find out once they are elected. By then, it is too late; and politicians gamble we will simply forget or not care about old lies, when they stand for re-election. Now, politicians such as Trump will lie about what they said _yesterday_. In short, they will lie blatantly, as if the truth is simply irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-society-increasingly-post-truth/769674/19 "2016-10-25T23:36:29Z")
I suspect the problem isn’t so much that America is ‘post truth’ but more likely ‘post nuance’. Nuanced positions don’t sell. A couple examples: Either climate change is the biggest threat to everything ever and anyone who disagrees wants the world to burn or climate change is a total hoax and those who believe in AGW just want to control everyone. There is no possible middle ground. If you don’t support abortion it is because you want women back at home, barefoot, pregnant and helpless. If you do support abortion it is because you like killing babies. There is no possible middle ground. On every issue that hits emotional buttons, the issues are framed in such a way that those who disagree with you are evil. This is pushed by the pols to get the base out. This is pushed by media outlets to gain and keep their core audience. Outrage wins elections and sells ads. So nuance isn’t good. And since those who disagree with you on issue X are evil, you don’t want to talk with them. So we are balkanizing, forming little places on the internet where we go to agree with others who agree with us that those poor, stupid folks who don’t agree with us are evil\*. It is sorta funny. I have floated the idea (on this board and elsewhere) that what us voters ought to do is severely punish any politician caught lying. Vote them out and make it clear that lying won’t work. The reaction so far has been along the lines of 'Yeah, those damned \ will be screwed!". When I point out that it needs to happen to both parties the reaction is usually ‘We can’t do _THAT_!’ Of course, the reason that you can’t do it is that the other side might win an election or two… Really kind of insane, actually. Slee - Yeah, that is a confusing sentence… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-society-increasingly-post-truth/769674/20 "2016-10-26T09:40:08Z")
There’s a passage from _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ that seems relevant: > [@](#): > > All rulers in all ages have tried to impose a false view of the world upon their followers, but they could not afford to encourage any illusion that tended to impair military efficiency. So long as defeat meant the loss of independence, or some other result generally held to be undesirable, the precautions against defeat had to be serious. Physical facts could not be ignored. In philosophy, or religion, or ethics, or politics, two and two might make five, but when one was designing a gun or an aeroplane they had to make four. Inefficient nations were always conquered sooner or later, and the struggle for efficiency was inimical to illusions. As long as the U.S. is a military-industrial power, the fields of science and technology will have to work from facts, but politics and religion have always been fact-free zones. What Orwell called _doublethink_ was the ability to know a fact and know a contradictory lie at the same time with no internal conflict, applying whichever fit a given situation. Though he may have coined that particular term, I doubt he was the first to note the concept, which I’m sure has existed as long as humans have been forming governments mingled with convenient myths. If anything, modern Americans (indeed, modern anyone-in-a-post-industrial-society) can live in reasonable comfort, using and surrounded by technology they know how to use, but need not bother understanding the principles behind. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-american-society-increasingly-post-truth/769674.md?page=2)