# Is an 8 month old fetus really a baby? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158 "2003-04-21T22:58:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/21 "2003-04-22T20:38:10Z")
> [@](#): > > [nitpick]SCOTUS seems to disagree with you when they said they “need not determine when a fetus becomes a person” (paraphrasing from memory) [/nitpick] Perhaps, but that hardly settled the issue. And I’ll hazard that they were speaking in terms of when a fetus is to be _legally_ recognized as a person rather than in actuality. **Beagledave** , by “clamoring” I meant to imply that politically weighty numbers of people are not expressing a _need_ that they be able to do just that. I suspect that AHunter and the others are speaking “in theory” and doing so in the context of a threat to roll back abortions rights that can produce a hardening of positions, a refusal to give an inch. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/22 "2003-04-22T22:15:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*If the mother wants it, it is. \*\* That’s the world’s point of view and rather stupid imho. A baby whether inside or outside the womb is a baby regardless of the feelings of the mother. A baby doesn’t magically morph into a non being just because the mother doesn’t want it. One on end we have people wanting to prosecute for 2 murders because of the death of a pregnant mother but at the same time it’s okay to kill that baby because mommy doesn’t want it. That sure makes a lot of sense. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/23 "2003-04-22T22:31:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sqweels \* > \*\* > **Beagledave** , by “clamoring” I meant to imply that politically weighty numbers of people are not expressing a _need_ that they be able to do just that. \*\* Huh. When you said No one, I thought you meant, ummm… No one as opposed to “politically weighty numbers”. :shrug: > [@](#): > > \*\* > I suspect that AHunter and the others are speaking “in theory” and doing so in the context of a threat to roll back abortions rights that can produce a hardening of positions, a refusal to give an inch. \*\* Well you “suspect” wrong, unless those pro choice folks are lying (maybe they were?). There have been numerous posters on these boards who have said emphatically that the developmental stage of the organism does not matter as long as it is occupying the uterus. Terms like “parasite” got bandied about. Another poster said she didn’t care, for example, if David Letterman was inside her uterus, she had the right to determine its fate. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/24 "2003-04-22T22:47:04Z")
And since we will probably eventually have to set a legal definition, how would the third trimester do for a start? You’ll never be able to convince some people (me, for example) that life begins at conception when the body can abort it naturally simply by the cell not attaching to the uterine wall, the hormones not kicking in, etc. So how about we set a point where the kid can survive without extreme outside care–beyond normal care or even what would be normal somewhat premature care (whatever that is)? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/25 "2003-04-22T22:57:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*That’s the world’s point of view and rather stupid imho. A baby whether inside or outside the womb is a baby regardless of the feelings of the mother. A baby doesn’t magically morph into a non being just because the mother doesn’t want it. One on end we have people wanting to prosecute for 2 murders because of the death of a pregnant mother but at the same time it’s okay to kill that baby because mommy doesn’t want it. That sure makes a lot of sense. \*\* His! That was **exactly** my point. Its quite okay to kill a fetus cause the “mother” doesn’t want it, but not okay if she’s killed while pregnant. I agree with you completely, I guess I should’ve added a roll eyes. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2003, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/26 "2003-04-22T23:45:57Z")
Ahhhhh! I got it! Glad you agree.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/27 "2003-04-23T00:04:34Z")
H4E: Your bit about “a baby’s a baby” doesn’t wash according to the law. In case you’ve missed the memo, here’s a copy I just happen to have around: > [@](#): > > From: The Folks Who Actually Did Create the Current Form of Government of the United States of America. > To: Those Who Can’t be Bothered to Read the Constitution > > Subj: SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE > > Text: We meant it when we put that concept in there. > > Signed: The Aforementioned Folks ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/28 "2003-04-23T00:06:18Z")
BTW, as mentioned already, the law, you know the thing that actually matters in a trial, doesn’t even use the word “baby.” The word used is “fetus.” ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/29 "2003-04-23T00:16:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Unless you equate the wants of the woman a crisis. If that is the case, every year I write a check to the IRS we are in crisis mode and I demand my representatives make a law allowing the abortion of said crisis, because of my wants. That’s a red herring, it’s completely unrelated to a woman’s right to control her own body. ---
**Author:** ![InLikeFlynn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f19dbf/32.png) [@InLikeFlynn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InLikeFlynn)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/30 "2003-04-23T00:30:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Robb \* > \*\*I think that this is the law that Peterson is charged with offending: > > Other states have laws similar to this, but I don’t know if anyone has ever been prosecuted under them. \*\* ======================== It is going to be extreamly hard if not impossible to prove that (unlike his beautiful wife), he killed the fetus “With Malice”. The fetus was more like (please excuse me for sounding cold) collateral damage" . ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/31 "2003-04-23T00:33:26Z")
We don’t base our laws on feelings. A fetus is not legally a person and thus can’t legally be murdered. The feelings of the mother are not relevant to the matter. I would support laws putting harsher penalties on those who would assault or murder a pregnant woman, considering her more vulnerable condition. Perhaps murdering a pregnant woman should be an aggravating circumstance that would make someone eligible for the death penalty. But the important point is that the **woman** should be protected by the law, and not the fetus. ---
**Author:** ![Robb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Robb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robb)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/32 "2003-04-23T00:45:18Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by InLikeFlynn_ > It is going to be extreamly hard if not impossible to prove that (unlike his beautiful wife), he killed the fetus “With Malice”. I think it will be rather easy to prove malice towards the fetus if they can prove malice towards the mother. It will be easy to prove that he knew his wife was pregnant. It won’t be hard to show that when a mother dies, the fetus dies shortly thereafter. If they show that he intended to kill his wife, and therefore that offense was with malice, the law will allow them to transfer that malice to the killing of the fetus. > [@](#): > > [188](http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=187-199). Such malice may be express or implied. It is express when there is manifested a deliberate intention unlawfully to take away the life of a fellow creature. It is implied, when no considerable provocation appears, or when the circumstances attending the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart. >    When it is shown that the killing resulted from the intentional doing of an act with express or implied malice as defined above, no other mental state need be shown to establish the mental state of malice aforethought. Neither an awareness of the obligation to act within the general body of laws regulating society nor acting despite such awareness is included within the definition of malice. ---
**Author:** ![Spite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spite)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/33 "2003-04-23T01:22:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*From: The Folks Who Actually Did Create the Current Form of Government of the United States of America. > To: Those Who Can’t be Bothered to Read the Constitution > > Subj: SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE > > Text: We meant it when we put that concept in there. > > Signed: The Aforementioned Folks\*\* Oh come on!. The concept was not “put in there”. The “concept” is an interpretation, period. And a very liberal one I might add. If I worked for a gaming company and they put in my contract that a shall not establish a gaming company while in their employ using any technology I may have garnered for them, or even thaught of myself, does not stop me from playing friggin video games or even helping my friend who works for the competition on some code. So your sanrkiness is arrogant an childish. What you meant was: > [@](#): > > From: The Folks Who Actually Did Create the Current Form of Government of the United States of America. > To: Those Who Can’t be Bothered to Read the interprested Constitution provided by the current ones that do so. > > Subj: SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE > > Text: We meant the government shall make no laws establishing a religion. We meant it when we put it there. If we wanted seperation, then Christmas displays and the 10 commandments on public property would have been illegal and banned from the beginning. Or maybe they wern’t because we had no clue what we meant and figured those like **Monty** could better understand what we couldn’t. > > Signed: The Aforementioned Folks **Blalron** > [@](#): > > That’s a red herring, it’s completely unrelated to a woman’s right to control her own body. Well, my wife cannot legally commit, or attempt to commit, suicide. She cannot drive without a seatbelt fastened. And there are [many situations](http://www.plannedparenthood.org/politicalarena/roe/statelaws.html) where she does not have the freedom to control her own body by having an abortion “just because she may want to”. SCOTUS drew a similiar line on third trimester. So while it may sound good that RvW somehow gave women the unfettered right to “control their own body”, it actually only allowed them to have an abortion under certain circumstances. Otherwise all laws prohibiting abortion would be unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![Spite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spite)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/34 "2003-04-23T01:25:11Z")
“sanrkiness” will be copyrighted by yours truly when I get the chance, so the use of it on any public text will be highly fowned upon and I will ask my lawyer if I can sue the users. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/35 "2003-04-23T01:35:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > **We don’t base our laws on feelings. A fetus is not legally a person and thus can’t legally be murdered. The feelings of the mother are not relevant to the matter.** But here in California, the law says it is murder…feelings or no feelings. No matter how hard you try to argue about the status of the fetus, it will still be considered murder here in California. Did you read 187 & 188? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/36 "2003-04-23T02:04:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > A fetus is not legally a person and thus can’t legally be murdered. The law in California stipulates that under certain conditions the termination of the pregnancy is murder. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/37 "2003-04-23T02:08:00Z")
Spite: Last I heard, some of the Founding Fathers were the guys who not only wrote the Constitution, but also one of them was the guy who came up with the term “separation of church and state.” You can call it a liberal interpretation all you want–the fact remains is that the concept, according to them they said what I said in my attempt at humor above. Oh, and if you’re going to quote the Constitution in your pissed-poor (because it’s inaccurate) rewrite of my funny “memo,” don’t stop at a convenient point–go ahead and finish quoting the stuff that matters; i.e., is on point for this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/38 "2003-04-23T02:43:01Z")
**Gaudere** and I had a pretty informative debate on this topic. What she came up with was the proposition that all that really matters, all that makes us human is our minds. If our goal is to protect human life, what that really means is protecting human thought. If it has a human brain capable of human thought it is by her definition a human being, entitled to the rights and protections of a human being. We found pretty strong scientific evidence to suggest that the brain of a fetus was capable of human thought and consciousness at some point in the second trimester. I argued earlier in the second, she held out for later. At 8 months though that fetus posessed a brain capable of human thought and is therefore a human being in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/39 "2003-04-23T02:45:24Z")
“Is an 8 month old fetus really a baby?” -Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Spite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spite)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2003, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/40 "2003-04-23T03:20:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Spite: Last I heard, some of the Founding Fathers were the guys who not only wrote the Constitution, but also one of them was the guy who came up with the term “separation of church and state.” You can call it a liberal interpretation all you want–the fact remains is that the concept, according to them they said what I said in my attempt at humor above. > > Oh, and if you’re going to quote the Constitution in your pissed-poor (because it’s inaccurate) rewrite of my funny “memo,” don’t stop at a convenient point–go ahead and finish quoting the stuff that matters; i.e., is on point for this discussion. \*\* Most of the FF’s where slave holders and believed in the inherent superiority of white, landowning men. Ben Franklin urged the CC to open with prayer. And seeing as how they “invented” the concept after the CC, why is it not easily acceptable that SOC has everything to do with the non-establishment of a government religion, and not the total seperation of government and religion. Wouldn’t such clarification in the Constitution itself be more than private letters and speeches decades later by two of the few? And I was at a loss myself on what SOCS had to do with the current topic, or even what **His** said, but could you please tell me what was inaccurate? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158.md?page=3)