# Is an 8 month old fetus really a baby? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158 "2003-04-21T22:58:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/61 "2003-04-24T12:52:52Z")
But it is illegal for a woman to abort her eight month old fetus, no? If a woman does this anyway what would she be charged with? ---
**Author:** ![a\_daft\_girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5e925/32.png) [@a\_daft\_girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/a_daft_girl)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/62 "2003-04-24T13:31:33Z")
Most any “fetus” born after 26 weeks has a pretty good chance @ survival with proper medical care. A fetus born @ 8 months gestation has an even more likely chance @ survival, and It’s been proven that all major organs and functions are complete and present, less maturing of the lungs. Pain can indeed be felt because all 5 senses are in place and functioning, and if it looks like a baby, why can’t one call it a baby until it’s been properly birthed into the world? If it would survive, cry, eat, sleep and do all the typical human things any other fetus born @ 8 months gestation would do if it were born prematurely, why can’t someone call it a baby? I don’t hear many pregnant mothers saying things like “The fetus is kicking!” or “The fetus is due in 4 weeks” I think murder is defined by ending the life of a living creature. Obviously a “fetus” at 8 months gestation is “living” otherwise it wouldnt continue to grow in it’s mothers womb. It wouldnt move, or respond to stimuli, or suck it’s thumb, or urinate. It’s capable of surviving outside the womb at this stage, so why does the “fetus” have to experience air in it’s lungs and seeing the world outside the womb with it’s functioning eyes to be considered a living being? If it’s alive @ the time its mother was killed, and the person who killed her could obviously tell she was very PREGNANT, why should they not also be responsible for ending the life of a “fetus” that would have otherwise most likely survived just fine, had the option of giving birth at that moment been given? And why should a persons life only be validated by the fact that it had experienced breathing oxygen for the first time? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/63 "2003-04-24T13:48:27Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by_ **girlb0x** > I think murder is defined by ending the life of a living creature. You may think this but that’s not the legal definition of murder. > [@](#): > > If it’s alive @ the time its mother was killed, and the person who killed her could obviously tell she was very PREGNANT, why should they not also be responsible for ending the life of a “fetus” that would have otherwise most likely survived just fine, had the option of giving birth at that moment been given? Well that person should definitely be held responsible, but murder? You stated in the beginning of your post: > [@](#): > > Most any “fetus” born after 26 weeks has a pretty good chance @ survival with proper medical care. Yet if a woman aborts her fetus at 26 weeks she’s not charged with murder. Why should someone who kills the same fetus without her permission be charged with murder? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/64 "2003-04-24T14:03:42Z")
JThunder: You wouldn’t happen to have a reference from a linguistics site that supports that position, would you? ---
**Author:** ![flubber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b782af/32.png) [@flubber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flubber)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/65 "2003-04-24T14:54:29Z")
Murder will be defined differently in a dictionary as compared to the statutes of Canada or any other jurisdiction. There are numerous definitions, all equally valid , depending on the purpose of that definition. Original question . . . My wife happens to be 38 weeks pregnant and there is definitely as viable human person inside her. I don’t care whether you call that living creature a baby or a fetus or whatever . . . it is ALIVE and to kill it at this stage should be punishable exactly the same as any murder. I think people can debate the merits of early term abortions and can respect the views of people on both sides of that issue, but if we are talking about an advanced pregnancy, there is no doubt in my mind that there SHOULD be criminal sanctions for killing the fetus/baby. I think that everyone agrees that there is a point where a fetus should attain “personhood” . . . the debate is as to when that happens. For me, its definitely before birth . . . I would be comfortable if the law protected the fetus at “viability” which could for clarity/certainty be defined as a given number of weeks of development ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/66 "2003-04-24T15:17:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by x-ray vision \* > **But it is illegal for a woman to abort her eight month old fetus, no?** No, it isn’t. We’ve discussed this many times before. Abortion is perfectly legal up until the point of birth. In the third trimester, abortions are supposedly allowed only for “health” reasons – yet _Doe v. Bolton_ defined health so broadly as to make this distinction meaningless. The Senate Judiciary Committeee thus concluded that there are effectively no legal barriers against obtaining an abortion at any time during pregnancy. ---
**Author:** ![flubber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b782af/32.png) [@flubber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flubber)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/67 "2003-04-24T15:52:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\*there are effectively no legal barriers against obtaining an abortion at any time during pregnancy. \*\* Thats something that personally, I find offensive. There can be valid arguments about the woman’s versus the fetus’ rights during the early stages but why can not a woman’s right to choose be limited in that she has to choose up until a certain point? After that point she has chosen and has to accept her choice. I would see much merit giving a fetus many of the rights of a person at an advanced stage where the probability of viability is very high. I am not certain what a late stage abortion would entail but I would not think that it would be any less invasive/traumatic than a caesaren delivery. What interest of the mother are we trying to protect in allowing the killing of a late stage fetus ?? My wife is 38 weeks pregnant and from the medical information I have, any issue that could arise now would be better dealt with through a caesarian delivery than anything else. What health issues can arise that make the abortion a better option? Hypothetical . . . If someone could , intentionally, point some sort of device at my wife and the sole function of the device was to kill the fetus ( with absolutely no harm to my wife) was a crime committed ?? What if my wife had no knowledge that this was being done and her greatest wish was to have a healthy baby? ---
**Author:** ![Robb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Robb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robb)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/68 "2003-04-24T19:41:34Z")
> [@](#): > > If someone could , intentionally, point some sort of device at my wife and the sole function of the device was to kill the fetus ( with absolutely no harm to my wife) was a crime committed ?? This would be easier to answer if we knew what jurisdiction you were in. I beleive that it is likely we could find a crime to charge for this conduct with your wife as the victim. I believe that earlier in this thread **Monty** told us that 31 states criminalize such an action as against the fetus. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/69 "2003-04-24T19:48:23Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by OliverH \* > \*\* > False. a)Twins can separate several days after conception. > b)Genetic differences are NOT sufficient to define an individual. Otherwise a tumor, being genetically distinct from the host, is an individual. > c)Due to acquired mutations over the course of a human life, an old geezer is likely to be genetically distinct from when he was a baby. Are those two different individuals? > d)What matters for the present state of a being is a)genes that are currently active and b)genes that have been previously turned on. Anything else has no influence whatsoever on a being. The genes currently turned on in an embryo have little in common with the genes turned on in a baby, let alone an adult human._\* Oliver, do you remember what I responded to? I responded to this statement that you made: > [@](#): > > I’d bet a month’s salary you would have trouble to tell a dog embryo from a human embryo. Careful when you take things out of context… > [@](#): > > \*\*Ah. So an IVF embryo is not a human by measure of it not being inside a human womb? And if some sicko put a chimp embryo inside a woman, that would be a human embryo for you? \*\* Again, out of context. What’s with the scenarios with sicko doctors switching embryos to test my beliefs on what’s human and what’s not? DNA testing is all you need to determine what embryo is human and which one is not! ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/70 "2003-04-24T23:22:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\*No, it isn’t. We’ve discussed this many times before. > > Abortion is perfectly legal up until the point of birth. In the third trimester, abortions are supposedly allowed only for “health” reasons – yet _Doe v. Bolton_ defined health so broadly as to make this distinction meaningless. The Senate Judiciary Committeee thus concluded that there are effectively no legal barriers against obtaining an abortion at any time during pregnancy. \*\* Isn’t parital birth “abortion” also legal? Which means it’s legal to kill a baby anytime during pregnancy right up to when he or she is at full term being naturally born with the whole body outside the mother, except the head still in the birth canal. Technically, according to man’s laws, that still makes the baby unborn. ☹ ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/71 "2003-04-25T00:08:56Z")
Got news for you, H4: “man’s law” is what matters in “man’s courts.” ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/72 "2003-04-25T04:14:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*JThunder: You wouldn’t happen to have a reference from a linguistics site that supports that position, would you? \*\* ] Y’know, a certain amount of skepticism is okay, but there comes a point at which it clearly becomes unwarranted. The article in question cited multiple authorites on the subject, as well as the _New American Standard Bible_, one of the most popular and well-accepted translations in the world. This should be more than enough to call **Blalron** ’s claim into question. Moreover, it simply isn’t necessary. The passage which **Blalron** cited only spoke of the “fruit” departing from the mother. As I pointed out, it says absolutely nothing about the death of the fetus. Ergo, one should not be quick to conclude that Yahweh deems the fetus to be worth no more than a monetary fine. Besides, what manner of a linguistic site would you expect? There are some cites which perform rudimentary translations from one language to another, but I doubt that you’d find many (if any!) that provide word-for-word, nuance-for-nuance breakdowns of ancient Hebrew words. I think that asking for such a website is going far beyond any reasonable standard of evidence in this case. ---
**Author:** ![OliverH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@OliverH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverH)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/73 "2003-04-25T06:55:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Yeticus Rex \* > \*\*Oliver, do you remember what I responded to? I responded to this statement that you made: Careful when you take things out of context… > \*\* Sorry, but it’s not out of context. You claimed that DNA is a basis to tell if you are dealing with one human being. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Again, out of context. What’s with the scenarios with sicko doctors switching embryos to test my beliefs on what’s human and what’s not? DNA testing is all you need to determine what embryo is human and which one is not! \*\* All you need? You got the stuff on hand to do it? Do you even KNOW to what lengths you’d have to go to, say, tell chimp DNA from human? You said that ‘The embryo in the human is the human embryo’. Nothing about DNA testing. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158/74 "2003-04-25T20:44:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OliverH \* > **Sorry, but it’s not out of context. You claimed that DNA is a basis to tell if you are dealing with one human being.** DNA would tell me the difference between a human embryo and a dog embryo, remember? \*\* > [@](#): > > All you need? You got the stuff on hand to do it? Do you even KNOW to what lengths you’d have to go to, say, tell chimp DNA from human? You said that ‘The embryo in the human is the human embryo’. Nothing about DNA testing. \*\* I said DNA was available to tell the difference, now you’re bringing up materials needed to do it? Cash is the “stuff” I need to get it done. As for chimp and human DNA; yeah, a little more time and effort, but still attainable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-8-month-old-fetus-really-a-baby/170158.md?page=3)