# Is An Undersatnding Of Evolution Essential To An Understanding Of Biology? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757 "2005-09-21T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757/221 "2005-09-23T21:54:00Z")
> [@Erinaceus europaeus](#): > > \No, that’s because you’re adopted.\ Can we please come back to some kind of serious debate or let this thread rest? I am debating seriously. My point is this : young children won’t get evolution out of heredity. Evolution is like a huge frigging quantum leap forward from heredity. ---
**Author:** ![Erinaceus\_europaeus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47774/32.png) [@Erinaceus\_europaeus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erinaceus_europaeus)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757/222 "2005-09-23T21:54:39Z")
> [@Erinaceus europaeus](#): > > \No, that’s because you’re adopted.\ Can we please come back to some kind of serious debate or let this thread rest? Just to make myself absolutely clear: If you were somer kind of new student to evolution I would try to explain your misunderstanding. You (maybe pretend to) have an understanding of evolutionary theory, so I don’t feel obliged to clear up your (probably pretended) confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757/223 "2005-09-23T21:58:01Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Snipped. You’ve shown me the ideals set forth by an organization. That’s not how it plays out in schools around here. Real world vs. fantasy world of so-called ideal scientific learning. Not **an** organization: **the** organization that sets science education standards for our country. Again, North Carolina’s standard course of study makes direct reference to these standards. The state government has mandated that educators work toward these standards. Your refusal to recognize their status is what smacks of fantasy, not my acknowledgment of their existence. Actually, it smacks of you having talked yourself into a corner and being unwilling to admit that you’re wrong. > [@](#): > > Your last paragraph I left in - because it shows you’re completely off the mark here. No one is saying you should be denied the right to use that connection. That’s not this debate. Of course many people are saying that I should be denied the right to use that connection. Not in this thread, but it underlies this thread. After all, if we conclude (as a society) that an understanding of evolution is not necessary to understanding biology, then it becomes very difficult to advance an argument in favor of such lessons, in the face of people who claim that such lessons violate their religious freedom. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Erinaceus\_europaeus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47774/32.png) [@Erinaceus\_europaeus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erinaceus_europaeus)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757/224 "2005-09-23T22:04:36Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > I am debating seriously. My point is this : young children won’t get evolution out of heredity. Evolution is like a huge frigging quantum leap forward from heredity. No it isn’t. It’s just a sequence: reproduce (or not) - live until a reproductive age (or not) - repeat. It really isn’t a big leap. And your point, as I understand it, is that it is such a big leap that we should just skip it. I don’t agree. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757/225 "2005-09-23T22:09:24Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Not **an** organization: **the** organization that sets science education standards for our country. Again, North Carolina’s standard course of study makes direct reference to these standards. The state government has mandated that educators work toward these standards. Your refusal to recognize their status is what smacks of fantasy, not my acknowledgment of their existence. > > Actually, it smacks of you having talked yourself into a corner and being unwilling to admit that you’re wrong. No, I’d actually just never heard of them. Again, just because an organization in power does something doesn’t mean it’s the best idea or even right. Witness the misguided No Child Left Behind Act, or some of the recent FCC Censorship fines. No one here’s given any reason that evolution is necessary to understand biology other than ‘evolution’s necessary to understand biology.’ > [@](#): > > Of course many people are saying that I should be denied the right to use that connection. Not in this thread, but it underlies this thread. After all, if we conclude (as a society) that an understanding of evolution is not necessary to understanding biology, then it becomes very difficult to advance an argument in favor of such lessons, in the face of people who claim that such lessons violate their religious freedom. I’m sorry. I don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757/226 "2005-09-23T22:10:52Z")
> [@Erinaceus europaeus](#): > > No it isn’t. It’s just a sequence: reproduce (or not) - live until a reproductive age (or not) - repeat. > > It really isn’t a big leap. And your point, as I understand it, is that it is such a big leap that we should just skip it. I don’t agree. Nope. I’ll repeat myself one last time - I don’t think we should skip it. If you assert again that I have in any way said it should be skipped I will have to assume you’re a dishonest debater, and intentionally misrepresenting my posts, which is a violation of the policies of this board. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757/227 "2005-09-23T22:23:10Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > No, I’d actually just never heard of them. Again, just because an organization in power does something doesn’t mean it’s the best idea or even right. Witness the misguided No Child Left Behind Act, or some of the recent FCC Censorship fines. > > No one here’s given any reason that evolution is necessary to understand biology other than ‘evolution’s necessary to understand biology.’ Oh, for fuck’s sake. People have given plenty of reasons, and you just don’t understand them, or else you just can’t admit you’re wrong. It’s clear that you don’t have the chops to participate meaningfully in this thread, so I don’t much care about your comments anymore, either. When you can come up with anything to support your viewpoint, lemme know. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Erinaceus\_europaeus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47774/32.png) [@Erinaceus\_europaeus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erinaceus_europaeus)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757/228 "2005-09-23T22:27:50Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Nope. I’ll repeat myself one last time - I don’t think we should skip it. If you assert again that I have in any way said it should be skipped I will have to assume you’re a dishonest debater, and intentionally misrepresenting my posts, which is a violation of the policies of this board. OK. You’ve never said that evolution should be skipped in biological education. In fact, you’ve asserted that evolution should be part of any course in biology. I still don’t see how that can be reconciled with your statement that evolution isn’t essential to understanding biology. Especially since the only reason you can give (as far as I can see) is that evolution is such a difficult or “higher level” part of biology that it doesn’t matter. I’ll leave this thread. It’s making my head hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757/229 "2005-09-24T01:27:30Z")
I suspect that if we track **Gamera’s** posts closely enough, we’ll see modification through descent in action, as his position adapts to one that’s defensible. Currently, it won’t survive; but he might change it bit by bit until it will. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757/230 "2005-09-24T02:48:02Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > No, I’d actually just never heard of them. Again, just because an organization in power does something doesn’t mean it’s the best idea or even right. Witness the misguided No Child Left Behind Act, or some of the recent FCC Censorship fines. In case it’s unclear to anyone, **Gamera** is dismissing the NAS by alluding to NCLB. In other words, he’s looking at a program of scientific guidelines set up by a board of scientists and science teachers, adopted independently by states across the country on the advice of their education professionals, and pretty much unopposed by any group of education professionals (at least, any group that I’m aware of). And then he’s looking at a program set up by federal politicians, forced on states without their consent, and considered very flawed by most groups of education professionals (including the [AFT](http://www.aft.org/topics/nclb/) and [NEA](http://www.nea.org/esea/index.html)). And he’s suggesting that since the latter is problematic, the former must be problematic. The whole comparison is ridiculous. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757/231 "2005-09-24T10:08:17Z")
> [@Erinaceus europaeus](#): > > IMO Diogenes isn’t far off, though: assuming standard (imperfect) reproduction mechanisms. > > As long as the resulting organism has to deal with normal (i.e. changing and difficult if not hostile) conditions on earth, you have evolution. If reproduction is evolution, all reproduction is evolution. Two cats mate. A litter is born. All concerned die in a barn fire. Reproduction without evolution. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757/232 "2005-09-24T14:39:39Z")
No, there was evolution. It isn’t necessary for the offspring to survive for them to have evolved. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757/233 "2005-09-24T14:48:04Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > No, there was evolution. It isn’t necessary for the offspring to survive for them to have evolved. What? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757/234 "2005-09-24T14:50:48Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > What? > > Daniel The reproductive event \*is[i/] the evolutionary event. It’s not like kittens evolve _after_ they’re born. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757/235 "2005-09-24T14:55:01Z")
First off, I’m not sure that this is relevant to the thread. But I’ll assume that it is. My understanding is that evolution enters the scene with the descendants survive to reproduce. There’s no “evolutionary event”: it’s a process, and the smallest unit of it is that a critter has kids that survive to have kids of their own. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757/236 "2005-09-24T15:03:15Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > No, there was evolution. It isn’t necessary for the offspring to survive for them to have evolved. Exactly how did the kittens evolve? (Bolding mine) \*In the broadest sense, evolution is merely change, and so is all-pervasive; galaxies, languages, and political systems all evolve. Biological evolution … is change in the properties of populations of organisms that \*\*transcend the lifetime \*\* **of a single individual**. **The ontogeny of an individual is not** **considered evolution; individual organisms do not evolve.** The changes in populations that are considered evolutionary are those that are inheritable via the genetic material from one generation to the next. Biological evolution may be slight or substantial; it embraces everything from slight changes in the proportion of different alleles within a population (such as those determining blood types) to the successive alterations that led from the earliest protoorganism to snails, bees, giraffes, and dandelions." - Douglas J. Futuyma in Evolutionary Biology, Sinauer Associates 1986 \* ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757/237 "2005-09-24T15:09:37Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > First off, I’m not sure that this is relevant to the thread. But I’ll assume that it is. > > My understanding is that evolution enters the scene with the descendants survive to reproduce. There’s no “evolutionary event”: it’s a process, and the smallest unit of it is that a critter has kids that survive to have kids of their own. > > Daniel The parents of the litter in question _are_ the descendants who survived to reproduce. You’re assuming one more step in the process than you need to. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757/238 "2005-09-24T15:11:10Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Exactly how did the kittens evolve? By being born slightly different from their parents. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757/239 "2005-09-24T15:13:40Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The parents of the litter in question _are_ the descendants who survived to reproduce. You’re assuming one more step in the process than you need to. No, I don’t think I am. If we’re talking about the parents, the evolution happened when their parents had kids who survived to reproduce. The kittens, not having survived to reproduction, haven’t been involved in evolution. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757/240 "2005-09-24T15:17:52Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > No, I don’t think I am. If we’re talking about the parents, the evolution happened when their parents had kids who survived to reproduce. The kittens, not having survived to reproduction, haven’t been involved in evolution. > > Daniel All they had to do was be born different from their parents. Surviving to reproduce is not a criterion for whether an animal is evolved. An evolutionary chain stops with the last birth, not the last death. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-an-undersatnding-of-evolution-essential-to-an-understanding-of-biology/322757.md?page=13)