# Is anarchy in international relations a problem? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036 "2012-09-27T16:48:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Scholar\_Beardpig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Scholar\_Beardpig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scholar_Beardpig)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2012, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/181 "2012-10-20T07:11:43Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Not if its on taxis, limos, ZipCars, Google Cars, Volkswagen beetles, Mercedes… “Yo, dawg, how come you put this sticker on your car? Who’s watching me?” > [@](#): > > Besides the organization, the G-192, ect. - there is the ideology. More to the point: the ideologies. Because at the highest level, it is beyond democracy, anarchy (in the other sense), fascism, communism, monarchism, capitalism, corporatism, theocracy – it has a hand, an unseen hand, into each and every one of these ideologies and others. > > For the Anarch, who wields power completely anonymously, is beyond organization and beyond ideology. Look at it this way, the President of the United States has to deal with just two factions: Republican and Democrat; the Anarch has to deal with factions upon factions. The Anarch has to ensure that this movement fails, that that civil war sets off such and such crisis, that this other movement only seems to fail, that this economic problem is related to that military conflict - all this while making it appear that no one is causing it all, that no one is behind it all. > > The Anarch would cause World War I with the end of the Cold War in mind. Playing all these factions against each other, that sounds like something you’d need battalions of honey-trappers, mudslingers, assassins, and general carry-around guys to do. So, again, we’re still - I mean we’re still asking the same question. How does the Anarch do all these things, and why do the people he relies on to do these things agree to help him? **Kozmik,** you’ve been talking around this question. Time to give me a straight answer. How does he control his people? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2012, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/182 "2012-10-20T08:50:47Z")
> [@Scholar\_Beardpig](#): > > How does he control his people? There’s the populus, the G-192, the Pantocrator, the Presidium, and the Anarch. The Presidium is the Anarch’s “people”. The G-192 is the Pantocrator’s “people”. The populus is the G-192’s “people”. Let’s take this one by one. The populus is the G-192’s “people”. How does the head of government of China control one billion people? Consider that at one time the world population was one billion. How does the head of government of Iran control 75 million people? Consider the [2009–2010 Iranian election protests](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%932010_Iranian_election_protests). The G-192 is the Pantocrator’s “people”. How does the Pantocrator control the heads of government of the United States, Russia, Japan, Egypt, and the United Kingdom? Consider that these heads of government are, arguably, the most powerful heads of government on earth whether measured relatively or absolutely. The Presidium is the Anarch’s “people”. How _would_ the Anarch control the Ayatollahs, those on [this](http://www.wargs.com/essays/succession/2011.html) list, and the Pope? Consider that the Ayatollahs and the Pope, while of different religions, are at the same level. So how this works, for example, is that, at one level, the head of government of Italy controls 60 million people and, at another level, the Pope controls one billion people. Remember that at one time all European sovereigns had precedence and recognized the Pope as their [overlord](http://fabpedigree.com/priority.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2012, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/183 "2012-10-20T09:21:17Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > There’s the populus, the G-192, the Pantocrator, the Presidium, and the Anarch. The Presidium is the Anarch’s “people”. The G-192 is the Pantocrator’s “people”. The populus is the G-192’s “people”. > > Let’s take this one by one. > > The populus is the G-192’s “people”. > How does the head of government of China control one billion people? Consider that at one time the world population was one billion. How does the head of government of Iran control 75 million people? Consider the [2009–2010 Iranian election protests](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%932010_Iranian_election_protests). They control them because the government is _highly visible_, proclaims laws and the penalties for breaching them, and quite _publically_ condemns people to death for breaking them. > [@](#): > > The G-192 is the Pantocrator’s “people”. > How does the Pantocrator control the heads of government of the United States, Russia, Japan, Egypt, and the United Kingdom? Consider that these heads of government are, arguably, the most powerful heads of government on earth whether measured relatively or absolutely. Why don’t you tell us how the Pantocrator controls them? You haven’t explained how s/he does so. > [@](#): > > The Presidium is the Anarch’s “people”. > How _would_ the Anarch control the Ayatollahs, those on [this](http://www.wargs.com/essays/succession/2011.html) list, and the Pope? Consider that the Ayatollahs and the Pope, while of different religions, are at the same level. > > So how this works, for example, is that, at one level, the head of government of Italy controls 60 million people and, at another level, the Pope controls one billion people. Remember that at one time all European sovereigns had precedence and recognized the Pope as their [overlord](http://fabpedigree.com/priority.htm). The Pope does not ‘control’ a billion people. He controls the bishops of the Roman Catholic Church, but their congregations are of their own mind. You might as well claim Queen Elizabeth II has direct command over Her British citizens, when in fact She does not. Again, you’re not explaining yourself at all. We get that people are under the control of governments - some constitutional, some not so constitutional. But all this reinforces is **our** argument that the heads of these governments would scoff at a Pantocrator or an Anarch who sought to control them. In **reality** , rather than in your imagination, the Pantocrator and the Anarch are utterly impotent, in appearance and in fact. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2012, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/184 "2012-10-20T12:29:03Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Again, you’re not explaining yourself at all. I think he may be demonstrating that control is based on meandering, nonsensical missives that leave you with vague feeling of confusion. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2012, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/185 "2012-10-20T12:37:55Z")
Perhaps he thinks he is engaging in a Socratic dialogue, asking us questions to guide us to our own revelation of truth. But I doubt it. I am more likely to think that he believe that his (and our) inability to envision the working mechanism of how the Autarch’s “power” is implemented is somehow proof that it is great, mighty, and beyond the ken of the masses. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2012, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/186 "2012-10-20T13:19:04Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > I think he may be demonstrating that control is based on meandering, nonsensical missives that leave you with vague feeling of confusion. Could be. The more I read them, the more I feel my own self-control wane. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/187 "2012-10-22T13:56:49Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > We get that people are under the control of governments - some constitutional, some not so constitutional. But all this reinforces is **our** argument that the heads of these governments would scoff at a Pantocrator or an Anarch who sought to control them. _ **My** _ argument is that the people are under the control of governments and that governments are under the control of the Anarch. The governments of China, India, the United States, Russia, Japan, Germany, France, the United Kingdom, Italy, Spain, and all the other governments of the world are under the control of the Anarch. Why do you get part of my argument (the people are under the control) while not getting the other part of my argument (governments are under the control). Why is is that the people can be under control but not the governments? The people being under the control of governments - control. The governments being under control of the Anarch - meta-control. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/188 "2012-10-22T14:04:47Z")
The governments of the world hold power by virtue of elections, arms, or tradition. By virtue of what does the Anarch hold power? ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/189 "2012-10-22T14:10:16Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > _ **My** _ argument is that the people are under the control of governments and that governments are under the control of the Anarch. The governments of China, India, the United States, Russia, Japan, Germany, France, the United Kingdom, Italy, Spain, and all the other governments of the world are under the control of the Anarch. > > Why do you get part of my argument (the people are under the control) while not getting the other part of my argument (governments are under the control). Why is is that the people can be under control but not the governments? The people being under the control of governments - control. The governments being under control of the Anarch - meta-control. As Alessan refers, governments have control over the people because they have a monopoly on legal force, through police and army. No government would last a moment if it relied on persuasion and a thorough understanding of human psychology. Still less would a government work if only 192 people knew it existed! In fact, anyone who has a thorough understanding of human psychology would know, in Mao’s famous phrase, that political power grows from the barrel of a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/190 "2012-10-22T14:43:20Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Why is is that the people can be under control but not the governments? The people being under the control of governments - control. The governments being under control of the Anarch - meta-control. Because the mechanisms of control used by governments is well understood and easy to see. You have proposed no method of control used by the Anarch and dismissed the clear evidence that no central authority can or is controlling the governments on the planet. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/191 "2012-10-22T14:55:31Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > _ **My** _ argument is that the people are under the control of governments and that governments are under the control of the Anarch. The governments of China, India, the United States, Russia, Japan, Germany, France, the United Kingdom, Italy, Spain, and all the other governments of the world are under the control of the Anarch. > > Why do you get part of my argument (the people are under the control) while not getting the other part of my argument (governments are under the control). Why is is that the people can be under control but not the governments? The people being under the control of governments - control. The governments being under control of the Anarch - meta-control. Because the second part of your “argument” is unsupported vapor, wishful thinking, and occasionally paranoid ramblings. Your “Anarch” is indistinguishable from the results of individual countries competing and cooperating with each other to further thier own parochail interests. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/192 "2012-10-22T16:00:33Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Your “Anarch” is indistinguishable from the results of individual countries competing and cooperating with each other to further thier own parochail interests. How does that apply during World War II? I’m claiming that the Anarch would be the _tertium quid_ above Hitler and Stalin. Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were powers that existed for a time and ceased to exist and, what’s more, those who had power _within_ Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union knew this. My central thesis is that Power knows that powers like Al Qaeda, like the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany are transitory, that Power intends for powers to be transitory. Again, the Anarch would cause World War I with the end of the Cold War in mind. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/193 "2012-10-22T16:04:40Z")
Capitalizing a letter does not make World War II any less of a case of various countries cooperating and competing to further their own interests. Some succeeded and others failed. Please show your work. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/194 "2012-10-22T16:05:02Z")
Do you intend to answer our questions regarding the nature of the Anarch’s power? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/195 "2012-10-22T16:14:45Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Do you intend to answer our questions regarding the nature of the Anarch’s power? The nature of the Anarch’s power involves the fact that _any_ government or entity - Al Qaeda, the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany - can be in power and can be out of power. That in the past it was the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, that today it is Al Qaeda, and that in the future it will be something else. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/196 "2012-10-22T16:21:28Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > The nature of the Anarch’s power involves the fact that _any_ government or entity - Al Qaeda, the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany - can be in power and can be out of power. That in the past it was the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, that today it is Al Qaeda, and that in the future it will be something else. The fact that people can be in and out of power does not actually explain anything. I can be hungry, and I can be full, but that does not describe the utility of a chef. “A chef uses knowledge of flavors and his own labor to combine ingredients to make good-tasting food that people eat so they are no longer hungry” is a description of the utility of a chef. Again, what is the power of the Anarch? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/197 "2012-10-22T16:40:40Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The fact that people can be in and out of power does not actually explain anything. Why not? Those in power in the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany knew that they would be out of power and, today, Al Qaeda knows that one day they too will be out of power. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/198 "2012-10-22T16:43:04Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > The nature of the Anarch’s power involves the fact that _any_ government or entity - Al Qaeda, the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany - can be in power and can be out of power. That in the past it was the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, that today it is Al Qaeda, and that in the future it will be something else. Now remove the Anarch from the equation and how are things different? You’ve described the human condition: things change. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/199 "2012-10-22T16:43:57Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Why not? Those in power in the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany knew that they would be out of power Actually the Nazis said they were the start of a 1,000-year Reich. > [@](#): > > Al Qaeda knows that one day they too will be out of power. Al Qaeda isn’t in power. They’re a terrorist group, not a government. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/200 "2012-10-22T16:56:15Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Why not? Those in power in the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany knew that they would be out of power and, today, Al Qaeda knows that one day they too will be out of power. Now I remember why I can’t look at this thread more than once a week. It’s impossible to get even the most simple point across. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036.md?page=11)