# Is anarchy in international relations a problem? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036 "2012-09-27T16:48:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/41 "2012-09-30T13:13:40Z")
From what I have seen, it appears that Kozmik holds some counterfactual ideas about political power, the autonomy of “heads of state,” and the mechanisms by which international agreements are reached. He seems to hold that the photo-op meetings and treaty signings are the actual event, and does not recognize that the face-to-face agreements are the result of countless man-hours of work by the state departments, diplomats, and legal advisors to the leaders. He also has odd ideas about the extent of power and influence any given politician has, totally ignoring the reality that leaders are constrained by the wills of those whom they represent. I also don’t believe he has any real idea of just what type of decisions his hypothetical world council would or could be making, or why his secret plots might be a better explanation for the observable state of world politics than the standard pseudo-Darwinian model of competition creating consensus. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/42 "2012-09-30T19:18:26Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It seems to be that your entire “theory” is based on the assumption that heads of government possess some crucial information that they withhold from their direct subordinates. Can you tell me, in concrete terms, what this information is? From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Secret#Sharing_classified_information_between_countries): > [@](#): > > When a government agency or group shares information between an agency or group of other country’s government they will generally employ a special classification scheme that both parties have previously agreed to honour. > > For example the marking ATOMAL, is applied to U.S. RESTRICTED DATA or FORMERLY RESTRICTED DATA and United Kingdom ATOMIC information that has been released to NATO. ATOMAL information is marked COSMIC TOP SECRET ATOMAL (CTSA), NATO SECRET ATOMAL (NSAT), or NATO CONFIDENTIAL ATOMAL (NCA). > > In cases where a country wishes to share classified information bilaterally (or multilaterally) with a country that has a sharing agreement, the information is with the countries it can be shared with. Those countries would have to maintain the classification of the document at the level originally classified (TOP-SECRET, SECRET, etc.) with the appropriate caveat (USNZ, AUSGE, CANUK, etc.) > [@DrFidelius](#): > > He also has odd ideas about the extent of power and influence any given politician has, totally ignoring the reality that leaders are constrained by the wills of those whom they represent. The G-192 would theoretically represent the will of every single person on earth. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/43 "2012-09-30T19:30:15Z")
How does that answer my question? Is the head of government the only person privy to the classification scheme? Do his national security advisers and heads of intelligence services not know it? Besides, that doesn’t answer what I asked for, which is \*concrete \*information. What, exactly, do only heads of government know? Don’t give me classifications, give me actual facts. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/44 "2012-09-30T19:33:52Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > The G-192 would theoretically represent the will of every single person on earth. We’re not talking about theory. We’re talking about practice. Government is not a theoretical construct. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/45 "2012-09-30T19:35:28Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Is the head of government the only person privy to the classification scheme? No. From the Wikipedia article, [NATO classifications](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Secret#NATO_classifications): > [@](#): > > In addition to the above classification levels NATO operates with > > 1. COSMIC TOP SECRET - A > > This level is given to people who need to have access to the joined Atomic program of NATO. This level is never given permanently to anyone, regardless of jobtitle - e.g. President of the U.S.A. etc. It is only given for short periods of time, when needed. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/46 "2012-09-30T19:41:46Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > What, exactly, do only heads of government know? That is one of the questions I hope will be answered in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/47 "2012-09-30T19:50:49Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > That is one of the questions I hope will be answered in this thread. How so? Do any heads of government post here? ETA: outside of Wikipedia, the only mentions of “Cosmic Top Secret” I could find are on UFO sites. I don’t think it really exists. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/48 "2012-09-30T19:55:15Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > How so? Do any heads of government post here? > > ETA: outside of Wikipedia, the only mention of Cosmic Top secret googling revealed is UFO sites. I don’t think it really exists. Oh sure. That’s just exactly what \*they \*want you to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/49 "2012-09-30T20:41:29Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > That is one of the questions I hope will be answered in this thread. It won’t be, because there is no such thing. If you believe otherwise please provide proof. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/50 "2012-09-30T21:58:44Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > I don’t think it really exists. It does exist. [cite](http://www.ncis.navy.mil/securitypolicy/Information/Information%20Security%20Policy%20%20Related%20Information/intro-natosecuritybrief.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/51 "2012-09-30T22:30:42Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > It does exist. > > [cite](http://www.ncis.navy.mil/securitypolicy/Information/Information%20Security%20Policy%20%20Related%20Information/intro-natosecuritybrief.pdf) Where does your cite say that only the heads of government have access to the information? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/52 "2012-09-30T23:09:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Where does your cite say that only the heads of government have access to the information? My post was in respond to **Larry Borgia** who claimed: > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > ETA: outside of Wikipedia, the only mentions of “Cosmic Top Secret” I could find are on UFO sites. I don’t think it really exists. Interestingly enough, it seems that heads of government do not necessarily have access to the information. From the Wikipedia article, [NATO classifications](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Secret#NATO_classifications): > [@](#): > > This level is given to people who need to have access to the joined Atomic program of NATO. This level is never given permanently to anyone, regardless of jobtitle - e.g. President of the U.S.A. etc. It is only given for short periods of time, when needed. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/53 "2012-09-30T23:41:45Z")
That’s nice. Remind us again what your theory is? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/54 "2012-10-01T00:16:30Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s nice. > > Remind us again what your theory is? Here is my theory: > [@Kozmik](#): > > I believe that the G-192 will show whether the Realist theory of international relations is true and whether or not there is a central authority above independent states. Also I don’t care for the condenscending tone in your post. Don’t act like you speak for the SDMB. In case you haven’t notice there is sometimes - gasp! - [dis](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15535022&postcount=14) [agreement](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15536497&postcount=36). ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/55 "2012-10-01T00:59:46Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Also I don’t care for the condenscending tone in your post. Based on your previous threads, where you repeatedly fail to understand the refutations of your claims, it’s one of the few tools remaining. Your theory is false on its face; there is no central authority above the heads of state. How do we know this? Because there is no mechanism by which anyone can exert such authority. Any and all claims to the contrary have been disproved time and time again. Putting people in a room together will not change this basic fact. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/56 "2012-10-01T01:05:24Z")
Wait… Do you acknowledge that ambassadors carry out the instructions of the heads of government? Are you saying that HoG tell ambassadors to do things that HoG would not do, and the reason is “security clearances?” I just don’t understand that. Could you explain that reasoning? (And please don’t link to previous posts. I’ve read them and they don’t answer my question; I’m looking for an explanation not repetition.) ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/57 "2012-10-01T01:47:39Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Your theory is false on its face; there is no central authority above the heads of state. There could be. > [@Alessan](#): > > the G-192 \*has \*no executive branch There _could_ be an executive branch. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/58 "2012-10-01T01:51:09Z")
But there’s no G-192. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/59 "2012-10-01T02:51:39Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > But there’s no G-192. Hence, anarchy in international relations. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036/60 "2012-10-01T09:59:14Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Hence, anarchy in international relations. Which is a more equitable situation than an oligarchy or dictatorship would be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anarchy-in-international-relations-a-problem/636036.md?page=4)