# Is anti-Catholic bigotry hate speech? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [June 26, 2022, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877 "2022-06-26T04:34:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/41 "2022-06-26T18:54:51Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Can you cite a real world example where a harmless joke leads to deaths? Probably not. Rude jokes made by a drunken uncle are rarely recorded. Can you imagine a bigotry that does not include hateful jokes? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/42 "2022-06-26T19:22:34Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > You are intent on seeking an exception to hate speech rules by disqualifying some identities based on the critieria that satisfy you emotionally or intellectually. Let me try to explain more clearly why I think you’re mistaken in thinking that there’s some absolute inviolable principle here. Consider the following spectrum of hypothetical expressions of “hate”. (1) I hate Klansmen. (2) I hate Trumpists. (3) I hate Catholics. (4) I hate Muslims. The extreme cases (1) and (4) are easy. _Nobody_ would call (1) hate speech, because no reasonable person would see any plausible cultural identity “Klansmen” that can be disentangled from execrable racist beliefs. If you are not a racist, reasonable people do feel that you have a burden to leave the Klan. So there is no practical distinction between using a form of words that is directed toward a class of people, and a form of words that is directed toward ideas. Whereas at the other end of the spectrum _everyone_ would see (4) as hate speech, since “Muslim” is clearly a broad ethnic/cultural identity, and only a small minority nominally associated with that cultural identity espouse execrable violent beliefs. (2) is somewhat similar to (1), and I think most people would not call it hate speech. Even though the form of words is directed against people, the intent is probably to criticize a set of execrable ideas personified by Trump. But it’s not so clear-cut as (1), is it? Almost half the people who voted in 2016 voted for Trump, and clearly we do not hate them all. Some are our friends and relatives, some are posters here. Many of those voters could not imagine voting for a non-Republican because they see it as their cultural identity, but they do not endorse all of Trump’s evil ideology. And (3) is closer to (4). But the target of the “hate” in (3) is less _clear cut_ than (4) when the _acknowledged global leader_ of Catholicism to whom the great majority of Catholics defer espouses execrable ideas. It is without question the wrong way to express one’s hatred of those ideas, but it is a more forgivable error than (4). So, yes - without any context, if you have to draw a dividing line for “hate speech” I’d say it falls between (2) and (3). But it’s a spectrum, not an absolute principle. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/43 "2022-06-26T20:13:15Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > Probably not. I mean, I have to conclude that what you were describing doesn’t happen. I’m not sure how wacky fantasies are helpful here. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/44 "2022-06-26T20:28:21Z")
OK, you are right. Hateful speech by one never, ever, turns into hateful acts by another. Seriously, I am sometimes gobsmacked by how low our discussion on the SDMB has fallen. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/45 "2022-06-26T20:35:16Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > Hateful speech by one never, ever, turns into hateful acts by another. Please stop intentionally misinterpreting me and flat-out claiming I said something I didn’t. Just stop. Period. Your scenario was that someone posts a harmless joke, people spread it, someone else assumes the joke is talking about something real, and then people die. You said nothing about hate speech, and neither did I. Stop it. 😡 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/46 "2022-06-26T21:25:38Z")
No, just Christians. Muslim or Jewish hate speech is usually modded. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/47 "2022-06-26T22:23:00Z")
The OP says “Protestants” but then adds a few choice adjectives that directly attack Roman Catholics. I see no reason to single them out and ignore churches like the Mormons and Southern Baptists that are equally opposed to abortion rights. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2022, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/48 "2022-06-26T23:36:32Z")
Yes, the Southern Baptists are leading the charge. But even they say that abortion is okay in some cases. But it is not all Protestant churchs. That is based up ignorance and bigotry. The United Church of Christ, Episcopal Church, Presbyterian Church, Unitarians, Evangelical Lutherans and the United Methodist – none of those are solidly opposed to abortion. Assemblies of God is the worst. > **[Where major religious groups stand on abortion](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/21/where-major-religious-groups-stand-on-abortion/)** > > Abortion is still a difficult, contentious and even unresolved issue for some religious groups. _On the other side of the debate, a number of religious groups, including the [United Church of Christ](http://www.ucc.org/justice_womens-issues_reproductive-justice), the [Unitarian Universalist Association](http://www.uua.org/statements/right-choose) and the two largest American Jewish movements – [Reform](http://www.reformjudaism.org/ask-rabbi-topic/abortion) and [Conservative](http://www.uscj.org/JewishLivingandLearning/SocialAction/SocialJustice/CurrentIssues/Political_SocialIssues/TheAbortionControversy.aspx) Judaism – favor a woman’s right to have an abortion with few or no exceptions._ _Many of the nation’s largest mainline Protestant denominations – including the [Episcopal Church](http://www.episcopalarchives.org/cgi-bin/acts/acts_resolution.pl?resolution=1994-A054), the [Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)](http://www.pcusa.org/site_media/media/uploads/oga/pdf/problem-pregnancies.pdf) and the Methodists – also support abortion rights, although several of these churches temper this support with the call for some limits on when a woman can terminate her pregnancy._ Remember it is only 14% of Americans who support banning all abortion, but 65% are Christians. Blaming all Christians is bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/49 "2022-06-27T00:36:11Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > harmless joke What is a harmless joke? One that calls Jews greedy? Gay people diseased? Black people lazy? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/50 "2022-06-27T00:58:05Z")
All of those are **harmful** jokes. I made a light joke earlier about knocking Pastafarians down a peg. They are the last people who need to be knocked down since they don’t take themselves seriously, are generally affable, and are more a movement than a religion. That’s the joke. I consider that joke harmless. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/51 "2022-06-27T00:59:09Z")
We did discuss this flag among the mods, and I was part of that discussion. I’m a practicing Catholic. I argued that the post did need a moderator note, but that it didn’t rise to the point of needing a Warning. To me, the key point is that, in this country at the present time, Catholics are not particularly oppressed. Slurs against an oppressed out-group are much more dangerous than slurs against a privileged group. There have been times and places when Catholics have been subject to significant oppression, and in those times and places, “ring-kissing Mary-worshipping Papists” might be hate speech. But not here and now. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/52 "2022-06-27T01:33:34Z")
I fail to see how saying that a “not particularly oppressed” group can’t be slurred, particularly considering the bright-line rule that applies throughout this Board. > **Hate Speech** – Do not post hate speech directed against any race, religion, ethnicity, nationality, or gender in any forum. I don’t consider straight, white men to be “particularly oppressed” in this society, but if I posted that straight, white men were all rapists out to enslave women and minorities and should be forcibly sterilized and stripped of their right to vote, own property, and be denied trial by jury, I venture to guess that would earn me something more than a mod note. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/53 "2022-06-27T01:37:07Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > {…} if I posted {…} If you posted that as yourself or as a hypothetical person that holds that position? (I think there’s a massive difference.) ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/54 "2022-06-27T01:42:36Z")
How about we stick to the same context as the post referred to in the OP? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/55 "2022-06-27T01:43:36Z")
Umm, you mean my post, the post the thread is supposed to be about? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/56 "2022-06-27T01:45:54Z")
You’ve had your opportunity to defend your post. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/57 "2022-06-27T01:50:09Z")
There’s nothing for me to defend. I’m not the one that has an issue with the moderation of that post. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/58 "2022-06-27T01:52:12Z")
Just for context, there were 5 moderators who discussed this before we decided how to proceed. @Chronos’ input lent the most weight with me, due to his being a practicing Catholic. No one shot from the hip, and our course of action was not decided by any one moderator. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/59 "2022-06-27T02:13:36Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > I fail to see how saying that a “not particularly oppressed” group can’t be slurred, particularly considering the bright-line rule that applies throughout this Board. It was a slur. That was why a mod note was justified. It was not, in my opinion, a sufficiently-bad slur to be called hate speech, which is why I didn’t think a Warning would be justified. You’re right that whether a group is oppressed or not isn’t the only factor in how bad a particular slur is, and calling for a group to be forcibly sterilized etc. probably would count as hate speech, even directed against a privileged majority. But the case at hand was less extreme than that. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/60 "2022-06-27T02:19:59Z")
I’ve reported what I felt was antisemitic speech and it wasn’t modded. Unless you’re privy to the reports you don’t know how much has or hasn’t been acted upon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877.md?page=4)