# Is anti-Catholic bigotry hate speech? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [June 26, 2022, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877 "2022-06-26T04:34:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/61 "2022-06-27T02:28:09Z")
That is true. But I have seen it modded. I have no idea if that was half the time or one time in ten, or what. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/62 "2022-06-27T02:36:07Z")
In the context of the original challenged post, what was written I perceived from context right off the bat as intending to say (here with me adding the unwritten parts): “the _[hardline Evangelical]_ Protestants will find common ground with _[those they normally deride as]_ evil Papist ring kissing Mary worshipers” . Major “sin” as it were being sloppy shorthanding of the references as if everyone else understood where he was coming from. It seemed obvious to me **crowmanyclouds** was not insulting Catholics or promoting bigotry, if anything he was taking a knock at the Evangelicals and was more unfsair to the generality of Protestants. A note seems to me fair as the most that applies as the main problem is more one of not making clear that this was referring to someone else’s ideology, and we should be careful about properly contexting what we say. Not that I am completely comfortable with the “not particularly oppressed” parameter being the definer for what is or is not hate speech… **but** … I recognize sometimes it does seem like the “punching up/punching down” distinction is what we’re left with when someone whatabouts over that Thing X was moderated but Thing Y was not even though both are very similar in form (but not necessarily in substance). ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/63 "2022-06-27T02:44:57Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > {…} It seemed obvious to me **crowmanyclouds** was not insulting Catholics or promoting bigotry {…} I’d like to think that in my, almost, 17 years and 8,000 posts here y’all would have noticed whether I’m a bigot or not. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/64 "2022-06-27T03:33:14Z")
Exactly, that was my point. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/65 "2022-06-27T03:39:28Z")
There is no difference between (3) and (4). None. And moderation, however it falls, should be the same for both. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/66 "2022-06-27T04:08:02Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > There is no difference between (3) and (4). None If you are unable or unwilling to consider social and historical context, you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/67 "2022-06-27T04:13:21Z")
Why make it personal? You are in no position to judge my ability or willingness about anything. That said, what, in your opinion, is the difference between (3) and (4)? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/68 "2022-06-27T04:18:37Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > {…} That said, what, in your opinion, is the difference between (3) and (4)? If only Riemann had thought to write a sentence and an entire paragraph explaining that… ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/69 "2022-06-27T04:22:31Z")
No. “I don’t like the Pope and what he stands for” is not a reason for bigotry against 1.3 billion ordinary people. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/70 "2022-06-27T04:27:01Z")
Which is what Riemann said, “_{…} It is without question the wrong way to express one’s hatred of those ideas {…}_” ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/71 "2022-06-27T06:04:41Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Having been a member for 21 years, it’s always been open season on Catholics here. True. Just a few months ago we lost a 20 year poster because, among other things, he was told that because his children went to Catholic church he was offering them up to pedophiles. Who the hell would want to stay here and take shit like that about their kids? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/72 "2022-06-27T11:56:21Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Why make it personal? You are in no position to judge my ability or willingness about anything. > > That said, what, in your opinion, is the difference between (3) and (4)? I won’t speculate on why you don’t consider historical and social context; rather, that’s for you to explain or not, as you see fit. Are you genuinely asking me what the difference is–from the perspective of a US-based messageboard–in the historical and social context of Catholicism and Islam? For realz? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/73 "2022-06-27T14:14:45Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > That said, what, in your opinion, is the difference between (3) and (4)? Both are qualitatively wrong, but I think there is a significant difference in the seriousness of the error. But first this: > [@gnoitall](#): > > I don’t hate trumpians or Scientologists, even if their beliefs are dispicable. When I criticize a group like that, I make sure I shape the attack to be specifically against the beliefs, not the believers. I don’t buy this notion that what’s critical is the superficial form of words. I don’t think anyone feels any need to circumlocute “I hate Trumpists” or “I hate Scientologists”. Context tells you that it’s entirely about the bad ideas, the beliefs people hold rather than the people themselves. Whereas the problem with “I hate Catholics” is that this distinction is _not_ clear. And that’s because Catholicism is both a set of truth claims _and_ a cultural identity. So if your intent is to express your feelings about the Pope’s loathsome ideas, I completely agree that this is the wrong way to do it. Prejudice against a broader cultural identity fits the definition of hate speech. But is the error _just as serious_ as (say) expressing hatred for Muslims because of the beliefs or actions of a small minority? Well, I’d argue that with Catholicism the issue cuts both ways. To what extent do _Catholics themselves_ assert a cultural identity that distances itself from the Pope’s execrable ideas? I think many Catholics do so in practice (as surveys on abortion rights show), but few do so explicitly. Rather than reject allegiance to the Pope, many Catholics who disagree with him simply ignore the parts they don’t like. So condemning a critic for “hate speech” on a par with racism for failing to draw a clear distinction between cultural identity and specific beliefs that most Catholics are _themselves_ reluctant to make explicit seems a little hypocritical. And of course, as others have mentioned, the question of whether the target is a marginalized group also speaks to the seriousness of the error. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/74 "2022-06-27T14:52:58Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > How about we stick to the same context as the post referred to in the OP? Got it, so if you posted > [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > that straight, white men were all rapists out to enslave women and minorities and should be forcibly sterilized and stripped of their right to vote, own property, and be denied trial by jury Not as yourself but > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > as a hypothetical person that holds that position – just like the post under discussion in the OP - I highly doubt you’d be warned. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/75 "2022-06-27T14:58:10Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > There is no difference between (3) and (4). None. And moderation, however it falls, should be the same for both. Sure there is. Muslims is not equivalent to Catholics. Catholicism is a sect of Christianity so Muslims is equivalent to Christians. Catholics is more like Sunnis or something. That is entirely separate from the question of how the statement “I hate X” should be handled when X is “Christians”, “Sunnis”, “Catholics”, or “Muslims”. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/76 "2022-06-27T16:21:30Z")
Also in these examples, you can distinguish “Catholics” the peopl, and “the Catholic Church” the _hierarchical, non-democratic, not accountable to the members_ organization. Sure, people can then turn around and say “well, if they don’t repudiate that identification, they are accomplices and just as bad”. That’s something that can be resolved and argued. But, does that mean you _hate_ **them**? ISTM part of what rubs people wrong is this notion of “hate”. What do we mean “hate”? I can be angry at the Trumpists’ deeds and have nothing but “scorn and small regard” for their ideas and leaders, and as a result commit to (a) seeing Donald and his top cronies in jail and (b) if I cannot persuade his followers to come around, then fight to overcome and disempower them. But does this mean that it’s just that I gratuitously _ **hate** _ them just for existing and being different? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/77 "2022-06-27T16:41:13Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > But does this mean that it’s just that I gratuitously _ **hate** _ them just for existing and being different? No, I don’t hate people just for existing and being different. That’s the ideology of the people who _are_ the target of my hatred. I really don’t see the need for pearl-clutching about using the word hatred toward people who want to destroy the lives of LGBT people or violate women’s right to bodily autonomy or turn the United States into a fascist theocracy. If they don’t want to be hated, they should find less despicable ideas. [Paradox of tolerance - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance) I think the issue here is whether we express our justified hatred in an appropriate manner toward the people who actually espouse these despicable views, without framing it in a manner that can be interpreted as unjustified prejudice against an entire class of people. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/78 "2022-06-27T16:50:56Z")
When I, as a Catholic, hear someone saying that they hate Catholics, I don’t need to fear that they’re likely to try to hunt me down, or kill me, or my family, because in modern American society, people hunting people down because they’re Catholic is very rare. On the other hand, when a Jew or Muslim hears someone saying that they hate Jews or Muslims, they do need to seriously consider the possibility of a real threat, because people being targeted for violence because they’re Jewish or Muslim is an unfortunately common occurrence in our society. That’s the difference. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/79 "2022-06-27T20:05:12Z")
Not calling you out personally, but I have noticed that several of our “woke” members have no issues with bigotry and hate towards whites, seniors, male and Christians. Let’s get out of this “oppression” loophole for hate speech. **Hate speech is hate speech,** no matter which race, age group or religion it is directed towards. I have seen many posts which hit the trifecta of ageism, sexism, and racism, and no one blinks an eye. “A bunch of fucking old white men”= bigotry. Even so- Catholics have been historically oppressed here in America- and are only 20% of Americans. And they are not the noisy ones when it comes to abortions, the Evangelical right are. Would we accept “The Irish are a bunch of drooling ignorant potato-eating bomb-throwing bogtrotters”? If anyone uses hate speech towards _any_ race, age group or religion, _they are a bigot._ **Hate speech is hate speech,** ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2022, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877/80 "2022-06-27T21:58:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not calling you out personally, but I have noticed that several of our “woke” members have no issues with bigotry and hate towards whites, seniors, male and Christians. > > Let’s get out of this “oppression” loophole for hate speech. **Hate speech is hate speech,** no matter which race, age group or religion it is directed towards. > > I have seen many posts which hit the trifecta of ageism, sexism, and racism, and no one blinks an eye. “A bunch of fucking old white men”= bigotry. > > Even so- Catholics have been historically oppressed here in America- and are only 20% of Americans. And they are not the noisy ones when it comes to abortions, the Evangelical right are. > > Would we accept “The Irish are a bunch of drooling ignorant potato-eating bomb-throwing bogtrotters”? > > If anyone uses hate speech towards _any_ race, age group or religion, _they are a bigot._ > > **Hate speech is hate speech,** ⁢ Hate speech is hate speech. But “a bunch of fucking old white men” is not hate speech. That group is not an oppressed class, and that statement does not contribute to their oppression. No one saying that can be understood to be trying to harm old white men. Anti-Irish sentiment? Sure, that’s hate speech. That is a historically oppressed class. You can also make a case for “rednecks” and such. I am a white man. I have not been harmed by people making comments about white men. In fact, they have helped me become a better person. Hate speech doesn’t do that: it’s speech designed to oppress. To put it simply: “punch up, don’t kick down.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-anti-catholic-bigotry-hate-speech/966877.md?page=5)